Dressing bandsaw tires, a sure method of truing the wheels + an edge question for ye

Hello folks, nothing clarified nor no end result yet, but thought some might be interested none the less.
Got my trunnion bracket good enough for now, I've got no angle grinder to modify things, or suitable rods to attempt nice welds, but that can be done at a later time.
I might have made the clamping block narrower or cut and welded on a pipe as I can only get the table tilted so far.
I only wanted something which was solid so happy enough, I've never tilted the table on this machine, nor know if there are limitations with the thickness of the casting thickness, and would have to make another insert, which might be an interesting project as I once had the composite block a very tight fit, so not great for veneer as things are.
Not needing that yet, as I've got more important things to fix.
Attachment 504323

Pity I didn't do some testing on the glue, if I had some scrap rubber of some suitable length, I think it would have made a much better fix, and I would have used something else to bond it.

This stuff is fluffy like the stuff in packaging, but in some places where I compressed it in, like the missing chunk... (after it had set for a few minuets) came out much more solid.
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The masking tape was a good idea and I got it prepped for dressing flat again on the machine.
Just for laughs, I stuck a blade on the wheel to see if I noticed anything.
(hand turning it) and keeping the 3/4" blade in a preferable location on the wheels, and also so the teeth wouldn't be interfering.
Well apart from much flutter as would be expected, the blade didn't seem to walk a bit on the top wheel,
so that's at least a bit of a positive step.
I'll do this test again, and maybe run it after I've dressed off the glue.
Attachment 504325
It seems worth another go with this glue, I think it would be just about good enough filler for the Centauro tire which I am going to attempt to slip over the tire.
Not sure what glue might be best for it, as it's intended to not need any and has a rib needing to be dressed off.

Thinking I might source the 3m or equivalent rubber and gasket adhesive, the stuff Van Huskey likes,
as should this not work, and the tire comes flying off or something like that, from not bonding with the other gorilla stuff, it would be the correct glue for the job for the new tire, and seemingly specifically suited for a possible next plan.

This stuff is very very cheap to buy and might make a better tire, or even sub tire to go underneath the Centauro tire, should
the vulcanized ones degrade further.
I have no clue if the Centauro tire would have better wear resistance or other variables.
I presume you can get this stuff anywhere.

SOLID PLY REINFORCED INSERTION SIDE SKIRT NEOPRENE RUBBER STRIP VARIOUS SIZES | eBay


Be interesting to see if I can get a better bond this time round.
Tom

Hello folks
Been a long time since I posted and am only up to where I left off,
as on further inspection of my machine, it eventually became evident that my upper wheel bearing spacer was
worn.
I've spent a heck of a lot of time kitting out my old pillar drill with all sorts of stuff, among other centring jigs and whatnot to make suitable replacements,
and I just about got the spacers made after two printer rollers worth.
I've posted about the issue I've had drilling these spacers out somewhat accurately over on the metalwork forum.

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Not forgetting some inspiration from Jack getting them faced for drilling, and to final dimension
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And a 5 degree bevel to finish them off. that's the inner race of one of the old bearings
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Back onto the machine, decided to dress that mess off the edge
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And now back to where I left things off
Nearly forgot to mention I bought a new precision beam at the new year for the job
Some testing was done to make sure it was better than the other beam, this seems no greater than 1/64" out on the worst edge
and probably half that the other edge, with no twist that I could make out.
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So another round of setting things up again, and eager to see how things went
Machine was notably quieter with no groaning going on, will have to screenshot photos as I was making a video.
Here's some before shots

As you can see the plumbline suggests alignment in two axis, both pictures demonstrating theoretically adjustable settings for tire wear.
The photo with top wheel might suggest depth, which is where I'm eager to experiment with,
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And below carriage scooted over to account for differing tire thickness
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Video not loaded yet, but is another run down on the prior video, now running much smother, and more close ups on the blade to make note of my very successful dressing work, which might not have appeared so if my last video was anything to go by.

So at least two experiments to get on with,
The first is setting the upper wheel depth to see if it can be improved as is... and if that don't make a difference,
then it will be interesting to see if dressing the top wheels edge the same as the lower one will improve matters.

Still have to get a new v belt and could also replace spacer on the lower wheel, but am leaving that off as I don't wish to change too much things at the same time.

Will stick up the video when it's done uploading.

All the best
Tom

Video uploaded, be interesting to see how much sweeter it can be setup, as there is still a wee bit of fore and aft.
Place your bets, upper flywheel depth or dressed bevel like the bottom wheel, both things together or other factors yet to be adressed
Eager to find out, but surely not before we can have some fun speculating :;

Wheel alignment & troubleshooting Italian bandsaw PART 2 - YouTube

Tom

Time for an update, had a mess around with the wheel depth and set the top wheel to it's maximum depth.
The results didn't differ, well not by anything noticeable that I could tell.
Fair enough though, the adjustment wasn't massive in below photo, (the plumbline is making contact with the top wheel bolt)

I was hoping to tout the benefits of the Italian machine here, but this particular adjustment for wear is more practical should the upper tire have edge damage and not the other way round.

Still possible to make this adjustment have merit, but I don't want to dress the upper tires edge so deeply, well not for the moment anyway.

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This is as close as I can set the thrust guide without contact ATM
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That's a Shinwa rule and very thin, and is about the tolerance I've gotten so far.

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So I tried dressing the edge of the upper tire, and found no difference really,
Dressing the edge of the upper tire - YouTube

Interesting to note, an error is much more apparent on camera, so I must watch my video to spot if there are any irregularities.

I'm guessing at this stage that it's not too bad, and if it has some variance of bevel depth into the wheel, it will likely be so small that it
wont make much difference, since I didn't note any differences pre bevel dressing.
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Might be a bit soon to say that the bevel means nothing, but I am drawn to progress to other matters, as I heard an old familiar noise which I hadn't heard since assembly.
A single knock, which in my mind, is the sound of the wheel changing position.
I was kinda expecting this, and now have lost whatever confidence I had left in the lower wheel bearing spacer.
(I didn't wish to change it out to soon, for interests sake)

Eager to see if this will sort everything out, as it sure made a massive difference with the upper wheel.
Very possible that this could be the cherry on top.
Hoping so, if not I will likely be sticking with things as they are, should things not change much.
It's no bother to dress the upper wheels tire edge in future, say for cutting tenons, as I know that the wheel is as deep as it will go,
meaning a trial and error basis will likely be fairly practical, should I deem that to be a good idea rather than changing the lower tire,
That would pain me at the moment, as the dressing achieved very nice results regarding absent flutter factor.

I cannot set my side rollers close to show, but you can see in the video that they got a bit sloppy after welding, and I sure don't want a pinch.
I don't utilize them anyway as I have this machine for doing rips and resawing.

Be interesting to note a difference, should that spacer be worn.
Will have to post another video should it sort that last bit of fore and aft movement out.

All the best
Tom

Well I had a go at removing the wheel, shaft and bearing(s) but failed on the last bit.
Those bearings were in the bore tight, no amount of taps would get them out, I even tried both bearings,
not a budge out of them.
I must have used the pullers on the old ones, as that would make sense why a pair were damaged.

So apologies for not documenting this, but I ain't gonna ruin my newish SKF bearings, nor the wheel.
The wheel and shaft seems a lot more solid, which certainly wasn't the case with the top wheel,
so I decided to stop while I was ahead, as it was some sweaty business, I'm soaked :yucky:

Think I'll need penetrating fluid to remove them, so not going there, those bearings had no movement in the wheel,
and were still tight to the circlips.
Assembled and tested again to see if I shot myself in the foot, luckily no damage was apparent.

Don't think I have any reason now not to assemble the machine, as I know where the wheel is.
Have some more messing about to get done before "dynamic testing" as Kelly might say.
Going to leave things as is for now, and keep an eye on things.
Thinking it might not be such a good idea to dress the upper wheel edge any further,
well until I see how that lower tire fairs out anyway, as it is rather thin by now,

Yes I could try tracking the blade so it's fully on the top wheel, but that's not really thinking ahead for a scrimper on a shoestring like myself.

Suppose that's the price I paid for attaining knowledge, and shouldn't happen to the next person should they stumble on my
obsessive bandsaw postings.

Should the tire last, it will surely be testament to the vulcanized flavour, and likely save someone a few quid.
Definitely worth some more documentation, should I find some more excuses to post.:)

I look forward to doing some cuts to see how things go,
should I be able to achieve decent grip of the blade now, and not have it partial to walking into the thrust guide,
which I believe it should be, as it was running well before things started becoming noisy.

I don't think there's anything I haven't addressed, bar a new v belt which I must buy soon.
Seems the belt which came with my machine isn't the right size, and the newer one (same brand and size I bought
doesn't fit, it's quite surprising how much an old belt can stretch and still not seem that much different whatsoever!
Will hopefully get one next week.

Hope you found this of interest, will keep ye posted.
All the best

Tom

Hello again
Sorry for those curious, I've been meaning to wrap this up, but it's been quite a while since I've done anything in the workshop,
only able now to do some final work to my machine.

No photos of that just yet, but setting up for the job and thought some more alignment aids might be of interest.
Glad to say it works and to double check my earlier method which has proven to be successful.
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This isn't exactly easy to do, but not difficult, just takes a bit of wrangling.
The top wheel being the first thing to check, and likely the best way of demonstrating an alignment fault in regards to top wheel skew with a new machine.
(note the blade is tensioned aptly to stop top wheel tilting, and was previously adjusted so the blade is tracking well back as not to foul the timber beam, which happened to be only just long enough)

This top wheel checking was something I hadn't checked in relation to the machine,
and I will admit a slightly anxious moment for me, as I had some doubts as an earlier repair I made was a bit of a leap of faith by all accounts bearing in mind I hadn't worked out how one needs blocks for the plumbob lines to settle,
and with a tippy saw difficult at the best of times, now since sorted a bit better.

Attachment 521241

The threaded blocks had been stripped, as some cowboy had curiously attempted to skew the whole carriage in attempt to get the saw to run,
by cinching on random spots of the carriage casting rather than the indent.
No surprise the threads got stripped, and testament to the durability of Italian cast iron, (I also failed to batter out a pin which I'm guessing was seemingly done by prior cowboy)
I really took the chance on the cabinet being in alignment, as there's no telling what happened to this machine prior to me owning it.
(There's no in/out adjustment for the carriage regarding the frame, as there is a lock screw for the shaft instead should you wish to adjust,
presumably for differing tire edge profiles, I've been experimenting with no results about this yet.)
One can also make note of the left/right carriage adjustment should one not wish to adjust table due to modifications.


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Anyways, I was very pleased with the outcome,
so time to test how good the previous alignment method works using the beam mentioned earlier on.
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So my wheels seem to be in alignment
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Reason for my seemingly two steps back approach on this is the pulley alignment being the objective
and likely a similar method will be utilized, but not devised exactly how to do it yet.

I'm going to be making a bracket for the motor to enable alignment, and also to hopefully gain some adjustability
regarding the pulley depth, (I'm hoping I can scoot it closer to the motor, as it sticks out some)

Just thought ye might like to see more bandsaw faffery to kick off the new year.
All the best

Tom

With the machine set up and aligned again, I thought I'd take some more photos...

Not sure if you can make it out, (as it's very difficult to photograph)
but you might be able to spot the shadow line on the front of the wheel hub...
Attachment 521255

Problem is the pulley is already sitting out very far in regards to the depth, so the motor needs to come closer, by at least 7.4mm
if wanting the pully flush on the shaft face,
Seemingly the pulley could go even further whilst still retaining full surface area of the key, but as of yet unsure how much exactly.

Attachment 521256

With that double checked, next thing to check was the pulley alignment.
Dug out a suitable length and simply taped the block onto it, no fuss and worked well.
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You might see the line ins't parallel with the other two,
This was pleasing to see, as I've basically worked on everything else which could be to blame for the saw not running smoothly.
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Will be taking the motor off shortly to see how deep the pulley will sit,
as that will determine the thickness of steel I'll be using for the feet/pads of the adjustable motor mounting plate.

Might have to source some more light steel for welding to the frame, but have the hefty plate material at hand to get most of the job done.

All the best
Tom

I've got a little done since last posting
It appears that I can get the pulley a fair bit onto the shaft now.
It was a shrink fit and very tight, still is even after a bit of work with fine abrasive, and took some effort to get beyond 2m
This is all relative to whatever stock will be used for the pads/feet which will get bolted to the frame, and might take a bit of fussing to figure out.

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Made a start on this motor mounting plate, took a bit o'wallopin
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Got the marking out done, the second time round that is,
(my original centreline was off)
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Hopefully I can get some drilling done later on, but may fumble about first with a few things,
as I'm unsure if welding on feet is a good idea, and a hole in the centre wouldn't help matters if I done so beforehand....
so may tap it instead, as at least then I could figure out the right thickness to use.
The plate isn't sitting against the frame so well, so a bit of scraping some lumpy paint off and a few taps should help.

Might hopefully get this plate mounted onto the machine tonight, and bring ye up to speed.
Figured some 6mm flat bar was the best thickness to go with (feet for the plate) and only have narrow bar for that,
so decided to weld these strips on rather than tapping.
Then I'll figure where I want to drill, and whether I've got enough fixings to muck about with things.

Holes drilled and made sure things lined up before taking out the middle
Attachment 522016

Hoping the plate will sit nicer with the feet on each end, could'a tired persuading it for posterity, but its a bit much of an ask
in this case for multiple reasons above, and I suppose would be questionable whether it would stay put.

Attachment 522017

Keen to get that plate mounted, currently letting my li'l welder cool down.
Hoping the plate won't need too much bashing afterwards, bit messy to be taking piccies yet.

Attachment 522018

Bloomin damp rods, not going smoothly atall, had a new well sealed pack which was an improvement, but still not great.
At least the plate is seemingly unwarped,whilst clamped down on some 10mm plate.
My thinking to have more emphasis on the outside welds as it would be easier fixed,
It's still surprisingly flat...but I haven't unclamped it yet!.
Awaiting the welder again, it ain't happy today.

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I wasn't expecting it to bend this way
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Good few more wallops needed, chasing bends and twist out
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Sitting nicely against the frame now, and still plenty of space for the belt tensioner bracket, just about.
Going to get some fixings today.
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Tom

Got a little done since, so might as well give ye an update
Took a fair bit more bashing to get the plate to sit nicely on the machine
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And also the other side of it in which the motor will be mounted against
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Bit of step drilling, a dang good reason to keep those broken drills
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Best tenner that I've spent in a long time, one of those rare occasions where I cheeped out and it didn't bite me in the @r$e :D
as it's well over twenty quid these days for a pack of Bahco's, near three times more expensive than the pathetic by comparison, Stanley ones.

I guessed as much, so bought one good'un, wasn't expecting to get much use from the saw frame which came with,
but the blade is able to be installed @90, rather than my other saw @45 deg
Turned out to be just the tool for the job!
Attachment 522575

This next bit took as much effort as the cuttin' lol.
Attachment 522576
Yumyums
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That's all for now, will take a bit of trial and error to get the motor where I want it,
and must have a good rummage around to find suitable shimming stock.

Cheerio folks








!

Spent more time than I needed filing that ovalish hole to look a bit tidier looking...
and the difference isn't atall noticeable with the motor installed, cursaid OCD, :roll:
Pleased to say the least that the assembly is very rigid, wasn't sure if the flat bar would be enough, phew.
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Still have to work out exactly what thickness shim I need, but done the outline of the plate, so that's basically that,
just measuring in 5mm from each side, and measure the difference again.
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It'll be no more than 7mm, and looks like I'll be doing some grinding to taper it off some.
Will have to wait till morning to do that, must have a good rummage around for something that suits.

I do hope I'll get enough movement of the trunnion when assembled, as I would like my table slot parallel for crosscutting.
Fingers crossed about that

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Tom

Took some trial and error today getting the fit right, and another chance to use the alignment checking method for the motor.
Well easier said than done I was to find out!...

Thinking a short pencil would be the most suitable for the job, I kept breaking leads, slightly puzzled lead to pondering other ways to reduce
the force, thinking a wee spring might have been a good idea, whilst experimenting with the masking tape, but was still questioning how I succeeded earlier.

Two things became obvious, the first being the motor was adjusted at the max belt length, so the plank wasn't as well balanced.
The second was the length of the pencil, being longer I could see it compared, and possibly provides some sort of give, could be a mix of the three of these things.

Another little trick I found out, was turning the pulley, whilst lifting and dragging is the easiest way to draw the line.
Now one could just easily prick a few dots and join them instead with a rule, same result.

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Some trial and error, thankfully found some stainless after much digging about
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Pulley now in alignment with top wheel
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Didn't break the led on this one.
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Can't wait to get this painted now, and see how the machine runs.:)
Hopefully I can give ye an update soon.

Tom

Last few days efforts I eventually achieved a trustable line, as I was getting some small variables which had me worried for a while.
I ended up trying the wide short plank on the wheels, and not just the motor, and found it much better, (easier and less effort)

Attachment 523118Attachment 523119
I measured it for interests sake, and it's 1 inch thick, and very nearly unusable due to clearance of the chassis, i.e certainly no thinner, perhaps something, say under 30mm might be a safe bet for my 600 machine, though the thicker it is, the harder to balance it.
It's around 640mm long, and 92mm wide.
I think the tiniest bevel on both ends might be helpful, as I mistakenly flipped my level around, (This fairly decent level will hinge on the ends, and when upside down, the opposite)
I think it may have cleared a possible bit of spelching/rubbish on the end of the plank, (even though I gave them some attention with some scraping)
as my line is trustworthy now.
Don't bevel it too much, as if just over an inch, it may jam in-between chassis and wheel.

It seems that one can even do ball park alignment with some ticks, and go from there
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The wider plank enables one to traverse across the width, rather than marking from multiple locations whilst following the wheel.

I revisited doing some north/south adjustments, pleased to say it didn't throw things off a mile, so perhaps my impression was wrong about that,
I believe it did move, but not as much as I had thought.
Right or wrong, I done these minute (east/west only) adjustments with blade under tension.

Going back to the motor now, those pulleys have a shrink fit on the shaft, took a good bit of effort to pull out a bit, (after setting it deeper that is)
*which I might mention, the design lends itself to doing this mounting plate job, compared to some in which this much adjustment may not be possible, due to the pulley being
quite a bit on the shaft already... i.e bolting a plate to inside or outside might not get the pulley within the range of where it should be.
Attachment 523123
I've got my pulley sitting 3.2/3.3mm on the shaft now which is very nice, and my head hurts thinking what might need doing for a machine with flange mount motor, without such a design
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I reckon if it were, I would'a needed more than a wee bit of plate.

Might as well mention to watch out for retracting lead in yer pencils! :doh:
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With that improved now, some revisiting the motor alignment.
After making two shims, turns out the stainless isn't seemingly needed and it seems good without anything but the 6mm flat bar:roll:
but time will tell if that turns out to be the case when everything is assembled again.
I have found some thinner stainless disguised as an icing spatula/cake knife incase it needs a teeny bit of adjustment.
So with that pretty close, it was good enough to work on the belt tension adjuster and arrange accordingly, as it was fouling against the plate, so needed a plug weld and re-drilling.


Attachment 523127

Going to attempt painting tomorrow, should I be able, then soon enough hopefully going to stick it on youtube.
Not inspected the machine yet to make note of improvements, as some possible scepticism presents some food for thought.
I'll be interested to see if it runs perfect or is just moderate,
If the latter, then back to revisiting dressing the edge to see if achieving a consistent edge on the front of the wheels matters a jot.
I left some edge dressing of the upper wheel for this purpose, as seemingly that's not documented online anywhere.
Some experimentation regarding wheel depth of upper wheel from chassis will likely need be tested beforehand though.

See ye soon folks

Tom

Hello again folks
Been doing some more experimentation, and found some head scratching stuff goin on.
Changed to the use of a slim papermate biro, much improved,
The pencil, it turned out... was seriously obscuring matters, and explains why I was getting false readings from the wheels.

Also I've changed to using a 40mm thick plank of the same width, which needed trimming to fit into the chassis on the RHS of the upper wheel,
so likely not much good to use to mark the pulley line anymore.

Poor mans tramming caliper, AKA the pillar drill with a bit of rod proved to be real nice for the job.
So now the plate is skewed to about 4mm which is nice, might need a wee lick yet.
Took the v-belt off for the next bit.

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Decided to map out the wheels, and I've found some variance.
With the beam and timber on the LHS below, is where the measurements were taken from.
Seems to be 3mm+ of a difference between placement on the wheel, and it's the exact same reading every time,
and when the high spot on the wheel is to the RHS, the distance between high and low is the same.
Attachment 524160Attachment 524163
,
Figured out registering the 40mm thick plank against the chassis worked better, as said, it was chopped so could be placed vertically on the RHS
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Decided to see if ever the chance were that the 30mm shaft was bent, swapped 180 degrees with no change there.
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Now, here's the puzzling part...
The lines below are from the same spot on the wheel this time, the difference is they were drawn on both sides of the machine.
Note the line on the RHS is farther back, so it ain't just an issue with the rim seemingly.
You may note the slightest hint of the line to the right being somewhat hinting towards the left.
They seem parallelish, but not really enough to go by, when you can see things so readily.
It leaves questions like, splitting the difference, joining the dots as it were,
or something I haven't tried yet, registration on the high spot whilst it's at it's lowest point.
I wonder what kinda reading I will get doing so.

Attachment 524167

I'll have to check a lot of things yet it seems, before I can surely determine the issues.
I noted my wheel bearing spacer isn't as tight as it once was, so more inspection needed, should it be the case of the bore having a burr or whatever.
That won't be until I make sure the lower wheel isn't influencing much, same deal as with the top wheel this time,
Never got any hint of that being out, but haven't mapped it out yet,
and some other visual hints maybe called for, to see if contact is noticeable on the upper wheel rim, will probably use the rebated block again
and whatever else is written down in my copy.

If I can get a line that I will trust now, I might just see if the bearings might seat into where they should be, but that may be wishful thinking.

Tom