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Thread: Guides - why

  1. #1
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    Default Guides - why

    Pardon my ignorance,l but with respect to guides I have no idea why users find them of any value other than the cool block material can help scrape excess resin and crud from the blade.
    The thrust bearing is essential.

    I have no guides installed on my 36 inch. I have the cool block disks on my 14 inch mainly because the screw that is suppose to prevent the guide assembly from moving does not.

    I seldom cut curves or circle. When I do, I size the band to the radius to minimize any twisting in the kerf.

    I have found that if my cut is off, it is tracking or blade sharpness. The guides can not compensate for alignment or physical band deficiencies, nor do you want them to. Prolonged contact between guide and band = heat.

    The amount of band that is not supported by the guides can range from 2 inches below to 12 inches above( I have the riser) and about 6 inches below to 16 inches above on the 36 inch.

    So when sawing anything over a couple of inches, the guides can do nothing to prevent the band from twisting or deflecting.

    I just cannot wrap my head around the idea that there can be any benefit in spending a bunch of money supposedly upgrading from what the manufacturer initially provided. If thought there was, believe me I would! So far, both of my saws run with minimal or no guide support.

    What am I missing?

    Don

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  3. #2
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    Default

    Don I used to make a living out of bandsawing products with very tight precise curves and that is where the guides come in handy. If you are using fine blades they can easily be deflected by a bend in the grain or a knot, a void or change in desity and when this starts to happen the guides instantly provide some resistance/correction. Of course there is also a combination of hand and eye correction as well but the guides are essential in keeping the blade where it should be in a cut. We started off using cool blocks but found they wore out too quickly and then used tallow-wood blocks for years and when roller bearings came out we changed to them. A couple of months ago I retrofitted an old Hare and Forbes 18" machine with precision adjustable roller bearing guides. With the top guide set just above the work piece it transformed the cut from +/- 2mm to +/- .5mm. The same would apply to your machines. If they had roller guides the blade would sit much more accurately in the cut.

  4. #3
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    Sorry for the delay in responding.
    Most of my cutting involves material that is 6” or greater. What happens in the kerf is more of a function of the material, as I use primarily 3 tpi and 3-4 tpi bands. I do have a 1.2 tpi on my 36” which leaves a very rough cut in harder material. I will be reverting back to a 3 tpi band on this saw.
    I do not view the bandsaw as being a finishing machine nor do I see it as an adequate substitute for a scroll saw. If it works great.
    I have gotten some incredible surfaces from certain materials, but as the quality and consistency of each board can differ, I do not count on the bandsaw to deliver more than a straight consistent cut.
    So, today I had a moment to see what my 14” could deliver.
    I made a straight cut into a piece of hard maple scrap that is maybe 1/2” thick. Top guide - round phenolic - 12” - 306mm from the table top.
    The band is a 3/8” x .025” (.635mm). I measured it as 0.62mm
    I didn’t have a feeler gauge handy, but found a piece of ebony that is 0.95 mm thick. It went into the kerf fairly snugly.
    My kerf is .33 mm larger than the bade.
    Unguided, I seem to be well inside your improved kerf.
    Finding complete specification is tough, This is one for a thin kerf blade.

    Wood Slicer Specifications:
    3-4tpi variable pitch
    Teeth hardened to Rc 65-67
    0.022 inch band thickness (.5588 mm)
    0.03125 inch kerf (.79375 mm)
    1/2 inch or 3/4 inch width

    If I do need to cut a curve, I would stay well within the minimum radius limitations for the blade. I would never rely on a guide to control the cut but I do not tight curves with fime tooth blades.


    Don

  5. #4
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    I wasn't refering to the kerf Don I was talking about how accurate the cut can be, that is how close it can stay to a line. But the wood slicer specs are amazing, just when I am looking for somebody with a veneer cutting saw too.

  6. #5
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    Len,
    I will never pretend that my ability to stay close to the line when cutting freehand, especially in rare circumstances when I cut any kind of curve. I do not do it enough to have trained myself to maintain consistent technique even for rip cuts. I rely heavily on having a good blade at all times, proper tracking and the fence.
    Guides have never played a part in my activities other than the thrust roller must be adjusted properly.

    Coincidentally, you may have seen this recent article by Brian Boggs discussing the merits of templates:

    https://www.finewoodworking.com/2018...&mid=486960304

    Certainly for repetitive cuts, this is the way to go. Michael Fortune uses templates quite a bit in his activities.
    I have cut a few disks for lazy susans using a jig. The final cut is a bit rough due to the 3 tpi, but the final disk is consistently round with a bit of cleanup.
    For me, eliminating my lack of good eye hand coordination as much as possible is more important than replacing or relying on side guides.

    Another good blade is the Kerfmaster from Spectrum Supply.

    KERFMaster | Strength meets versatility. Flexible Wood Slicing Bandsaw Blade

    So while I kind of understand where you are coming from, I remain skeptical of the need for side guides.

    Any others?

    Don

  7. #6
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    If the guide system was not important Laguna, Carter and Felder would not have developed the new generation ceramic guides. See utube video of Felder’s xguides - precision recsawing.

    https://youtu.be/bTu0nY5Hn5c

    If you read Mark Diginske’s Bandsaw book (bible) he emphasises the relationship between accuracy and beam strength. Beam strength for thinner blades is enhanced by lateral support from a correctly adjusted guide system - especially when cutting complex curves in thick material. I have found Mark’s advice to be very helpful in optimising BS tuning and selecting the right blade.

    The new ceramic guides allow virtually no clearance and offer support at 6 points ( 3 above the table and 3 below). Providing blade tension is also correct, accuracy is optimised.

    it comes down to what you expect the BS to do - a properly tuned a Bandsaw with the right blade selected can provide very accurate results. I find I can do most of my general work on the Bandsaw.

    Just my thoughts...... others my disagree!

  8. #7
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    The cut with the ceramic guides is amazing. Thanks for that link. We were getting pretty close to that years ago cutting 2mm red cedar veneers off 6" x 1" planks but they were nothing like that crisp.
    Having thought about it a bit more I think I could describe why guides matter in a different way...If you think of the blade as a line from the top wheel to the bottom wheel then a given amount of force will cause a certain amount of deflection ok? now if you make that line shorter by putting in guides then the same amount of force will cause a smaller deflection. Simply that the shorter line will deflect less for a given force. Capisci?

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toymaker Len View Post
    The cut with the ceramic guides is amazing. Thanks for that link. We were getting pretty close to that years ago cutting 2mm red cedar veneers off 6" x 1" planks but they were nothing like that crisp.
    Having thought about it a bit more I think I could describe why guides matter in a different way...If you think of the blade as a line from the top wheel to the bottom wheel then a given amount of force will cause a certain amount of deflection ok? now if you make that line shorter by putting in guides then the same amount of force will cause a smaller deflection. Simply that the shorter line will deflect less for a given force. Capisci?
    Agreed!

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