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  1. #16
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    I’m collecting the saw this weekend. Just realised it’s a different motor - 3kW as far as I know. I believe Felder changed to the 2.5kW for recent models. I’ll check the wiring when I get there, but the seller has had a word with a local VFD friend who confirmed it was suitable, so hopefully it’s all good.

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  3. #17
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    I'm liking your go-big-or-go-home attitude I'm getting quite envious of your aquisition list !

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by poundy View Post
    I'm liking your go-big-or-go-home attitude I'm getting quite envious of your aquisition list !
    I've been sucked into the vortex....

    I need to stop now - haven't even got the 15A wiring into the shed yet!

  5. #19
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    Just to add to the confusion to this thread, the N4400 in the Australian version has an electronic motor brake that requires power to be connected to the power supply to operate. The motor brake circuit injects DC current into the motor winding to stop the motor.
    Before changing the motor voltage from 415 volts to 240/230 volts and installing a phase / frequency drive, I recommend that you check that both the electric brake electronics are comparable with the lower voltage and the variable frequency drive unit and that the proposed VSD/VFD is capable of withstanding the DC back EMF from the brake electronics.
    I don't know the answer to this situation but have found problems in similar circumstances previously with motor braking circuits running through VSD/VFD's.
    I know from experience that the staff at Felder at Emu Plains in Sydney are very knowledgeable and helpful, I would be calling Stefan or any of his staff at Felder as I'm sure that they would know if the N4400's braking is compatible with electronic drives.
    I own a 240 volt N4400 and have connected it to it's own 20 amp circuit and never once have I had an issue with power. My personal recommendation would be to convert the existing 3 phase motor to an exchange single phase motor and avoid any future hassles also this would greatly improve your future resale.

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowgum View Post
    Just to add to the confusion to this thread, the N4400 in the Australian version has an electronic motor brake that requires power to be connected to the power supply to operate. The motor brake circuit injects DC current into the motor winding to stop the motor.
    Before changing the motor voltage from 415 volts to 240/230 volts and installing a phase / frequency drive, I recommend that you check that both the electric brake electronics are comparable with the lower voltage and the variable frequency drive unit and that the proposed VSD/VFD is capable of withstanding the DC back EMF from the brake electronics. .
    I suspect not, as a VFD has to be totally in charge of of the motor. All switches or other electronics between the VFD and the motor have to be stripped away and it's not possible to place the brake before the VFD. Fortunately brake resistors for attaching to VFDs are not expensive, the last ones I purchased for a 2HP VFD cost US$7. They do have to specifically suit the VFD and the VFD has to be braking capable - this adds a whopping US$5 to the cost of a VFD.

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowgum View Post
    Just to add to the confusion to this thread, the N4400 in the Australian version has an electronic motor brake that requires power to be connected to the power supply to operate. The motor brake circuit injects DC current into the motor winding to stop the motor.
    Before changing the motor voltage from 415 volts to 240/230 volts and installing a phase / frequency drive, I recommend that you check that both the electric brake electronics are comparable with the lower voltage and the variable frequency drive unit and that the proposed VSD/VFD is capable of withstanding the DC back EMF from the brake electronics.
    I don't know the answer to this situation but have found problems in similar circumstances previously with motor braking circuits running through VSD/VFD's.
    I know from experience that the staff at Felder at Emu Plains in Sydney are very knowledgeable and helpful, I would be calling Stefan or any of his staff at Felder as I'm sure that they would know if the N4400's braking is compatible with electronic drives.
    I own a 240 volt N4400 and have connected it to it's own 20 amp circuit and never once have I had an issue with power. My personal recommendation would be to convert the existing 3 phase motor to an exchange single phase motor and avoid any future hassles also this would greatly improve your future resale.
    I would look at the feasability of disabling the motor brake and using the braking that can be utilised within the VFD. Perhaps NC Archer may wish to comment on the feasability of doing this.
    CHRIS

  8. #22
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    BobL and Chris Parks are both correct, some VFD's do have a brake function usually by injecting a DC current into the motor. This may be a suitable option, however you may need to consider the emergency stop button as usually the Electronic Drive will have common collector input terminals requiring switching to signal a braked stop.
    (I don't know about brake resistors or how they function with VSD/VFD's).
    You may find by putting the Electronic Drive either in front of or behind the Brake electronics will in each circumstance have particular issues which may require the installation of control relays to take the Electronic Drive out of circuit when the Hammer Electronic Brake is in operation.
    In the past and now, most workshops would install a phase converter to power 3 phase machinery from a single phase supply.
    If you were converting a exhaust fan motor say from 3Ø to single phase then an Electronic Drive would be the most cost effective method and allow you to increase the line frequency to 60Hz from the Australian 50Hz and take advantage of the increased speed obtained. However in this instance the Hammer N4400 motor is designed for the Australian 50 Hz line frequency and the frequency increase available from an Electronic Drive is of no benefit.
    Have you found out the cost of simply swapping out the old 415 volt 3Ø motor with an exchange 240 volt single phase motor as this may be the most cost effective and reliable method of operating your 415 volt bandsaw on 240 volts.

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowgum View Post
    . . . If you were converting a exhaust fan motor say from 3Ø to single phase then an Electronic Drive would be the most cost effective method and allow you to increase the line frequency to 60Hz from the Australian 50Hz and take advantage of the increased speed obtained. However in this instance the Hammer N4400 motor is designed for the Australian 50 Hz line frequency and the frequency increase available from an Electronic Drive is of no benefit.
    Actually there is a potential benefit. Most bandsaws run slower than the optimum of between 5000 and 5500 fpm optimum (some far slower than optimum) although the Hammer is closer (3877 fpm) to optimum than most. The reason workshop bandsaws don't run at optimum is because it gets pretty scary and hotter so long term wear and tear kicks in. However, I've found having a VFD on a bandsaw to be very useful. I can for short periods kick up the speed to get it cutting closer to optimum and then when cutting something like Al or brass I can slow it down well below the 50Hz so there's less chance of galling and it produces a smoother cut.

    The other thing I like about the VFD is the ability to slow start so that high start up currents are virtually non-existent.I have a 3HP 3P Leroy Somer donk on mine but because it's on a VFD I can run it from a 10A GPO. I do have it running on a dedicated 15A line but I have never seen it draw more than ~8A . The motor has an independently powered fan that runs at double the motor speed so it can be run at quite slow speeds and not overheat. I don't have a VFD brake on mine as I made and installed a foot brake on it before I installed the 3P motor and VFD. The foot brake can stop it in under 3 secs, probably quicker - I'm just not game enough to push it any harder.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowgum View Post
    Have you found out the cost of simply swapping out the old 415 volt 3Ø motor with an exchange 240 volt single phase motor as this may be the most cost effective and reliable method of operating your 415 volt bandsaw on 240 volts.
    Si - the cost of an official felder/hammer single phase motor for the N4400 bandsaw is $450 for the electronics, and $600 for the motor, both excluding VAT. Not worth going that route unless you find an absolute bargain 3P. Presumably the pricey electronics are because of the brake circuitry.

    Many useful points in this thread so far.

    When I bought Mark's jointer-in-a-thousand-bits, SWTSMBO arched and eyebrow and spake thusly: "you're not buying this to use it are you? You're buying it because you want to put it back together." Wretched woman knows me too well. The point is, I do theses things because I like learning new skills, and have us much fun working things out as I do cutting up wood when it's finished. If I wanted easy, I'd just spend $2K on a new Laguna (which was plan A), instead of the equivalent amount on a 2nd hand Hammer which will require fettling.

    There's an extensive body of knowledge on VFD's here in the forums so I'm fairly confident we'll work it out, and getting my head around them will open up a whole new world of tinkering.

    If we get it right, it also makes 3P hammers an option for other forum members.

    And if not, I can always go to plan B - find a non-felder 1P motor with the same bracket, or plan C - official many $$ hammer. But that would be defeat!

  11. #25
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    Hi Bernmc
    Yes there is a lot of combined knowledge on this forum, yes your wife is correct, I also love doing my own thing and currently building my own electric gate's where I could have purchased an off the self version which would work straight out of the box, but I love tinkering.
    If you are going to purchase a VFD remember to derate it, such that if the 415 volt 3Ø motor is rated at say 4 horsepower then I would be looking at purchasing a 8 HP eg about 4kW VFD if you are running it off 240 volts e.g.half the voltage double the current.
    It's also quite easy to remove the Electronic Braking circuit completely and install a manual foot brake as BobL has mentioned, to the best of my knowledge I believe that the Hammer N4400's sold in North America have a foot operated friction brake supplied as standard in leu of the Electronic Brake supplied elsewhere in the World. My N4400 has a plate over a section in the frame to accommodate the foot brake cutout stamped into the frame.
    I think that the N4400 is a fantastic little bandsaw, the blade guide arm is a little light weight for heavy re-sawing of veneers and the dust collection could be a little better but in it's price range it has no equal especially in regards to quality in all aspects of manufacture also the Hammer N4400 is a joy to use being very heavy for it size it's really stable.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowgum View Post
    . . . .If you are going to purchase a VFD remember to derate it, such that if the 415 volt 3Ø motor is rated at say 4 horsepower then I would be looking at purchasing a 8 HP eg about 4kW VFD if you are running it off 240 volts e.g.half the voltage double the current.
    This is not correct.
    Unless an older or really cheap VFD is being purchased this is unnecessary and if not programmed correct can lead to a damaged motor.
    A VFD rated to match the motor will protect the motor and provide all the current required.
    Most VFDs can provide plenty of over current for the short periods fo times that modern motors are capable of handling.

    Amnother reason this is impractical for the OP is that 240V SO input VFDs typically don't come any bigger than ~5HP. 8HP VFDS will be 380-415V 3P in and out.

  13. #27
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    Had a quick look at the motor after lugging the machine’s heavy 4rse up the drive. It’s quite different:

    E7568EBE-ED1E-4ECB-AE38-55CB457DA966.jpg
    34D43875-8460-41AE-8770-E26ECB249856.jpg
    995FA37F-CCED-412E-9E8E-11EE6B39DBA8.jpg

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernmc View Post
    Had a quick look at the motor after lugging the machine’s heavy 4rse up the drive. It’s quite different:
    OK this motor unfortunately cannot be converted inside the mains junction box.

    It is either a 400V delta (∆( motor - if it is, it cannot be used at full power on s 240V VFD and would need to be replaced with a different motor.
    OR
    it's a 400V Star (Y) connected motor - this can be converted internally and should be done by someone that knows what they are doing. A motor rewinder can do this - cost for conversion I have heard about range from a carton to $150.

    Unfortunately even to determine which it is, requires the motor to be opened up and the winding junctions examined. There is no way it can be determined from outside the motor.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    It is either a 400V delta (∆( motor - if it is, it cannot be used at full power on s 240V VFD and would need to be replaced with a different motor.
    OR
    it's a 400V Star (Y) connected motor - this can be converted internally and should be done by someone that knows what they are doing. A motor rewinder can do this - cost for conversion I have heard about range from a carton to $150.
    Hopefully have time to get the motor off later today, and I'll find a winder in Newcastle to have a look at it in the week

  16. #30
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    Hi Bernmc

    I hope this can be of some help and by no means do I say that this is the only way to proceed.

    There may be another option in determining the winding status of the 3Ø motor as to whether it's Star or Delta wound without removing the motor.

    If you have a multimeter with ohm readings, ignore the fact that the motor is an impedance network and just assume the motor is a resistor net work.
    Firstly if you assume that the motor is wound in a Star configuration (we will call the motor terminals R1, R2 & R3) take the resistance reading from any two of the three leads and you will read double the resistance in Ω's of any one winding. e.g. R1 + R2 = Rx. Rx being in the resistance of any one winding if wired in a star configuration. If you you short out any to terminals (say R1 & R2) and measure the resistance to the third, you would find that one over R1 + R2 equals one over Rx plus R3 e.g. 1/(R1+R2) = 1/Rx + R3. This would prove for a Star wound motor.
    Alternately if the motor is Delta and you take the resistance reading from any two of the three leads then 1/(R1+R2) +1/R3 = 1/Rx and then you short R1 and reading across the other open terminal then 1/Rx = 1/R2 + 1/R3. Typically the actual resistance between the winding can differ by up 5% but this should make no difference to the order of magnitude of your results.

    This method should help you determine the winding of the motor without dismantling the motor to inspect the stator, you will most likely find these days that the stator winding is encapsulated in resin and not readily modified whether it's delta or star, that said even some of the old star wound motors could have there center tap separated and wired into a six tail delta configuration but this is unlikely with a mass produced European machine.

    If you go down the path of a local motor re-winder they most probably would be the best people to recommend and provide the VFD needed to run the 3Ø motor and avoid the unknown pitfalls.

    This forum thread has me intrigued as I own both a Single Phase 240volt Hammer N4400 and 3Ø 415volt Hammer A3/31 Thickneser/Planer I will go and have a look at the config of my machine when I get a chance. I do find that three phase motors run a lot sweeter than single phase motors and start-up nice and sweet.
    On a slightly different note last year my little brother moved his 415 volt 3Ø car hoist to a new workshop on a farm with only single phase available, in the first instance we looked into re-powering the unit installing VSD/VFD but the cost and problems with the various interlock dissuaded us from going down that line, so my brother purchased a cheap 3Ø gasoline electric start generator to run his hoist, this proved to be very awkward and in the end he purchased a new complete 240 volt single phase drive unit for his car hoist and has found this most suitable and regretted mucking about with the other "Heath Robertson" arrangements.

    Within my own workshop I have a vintage "Robertson" 1/2 HP 415 volt 3Ø drill press, that I'm considering upgrading with an Cheep $300 eBay 3Ø to 3Ø VSD/VFD so as to avoid changing the speed belts all the time. Should this cheap 3Ø to 3Ø controller ever fail it can be simply switched out of circuit and I will still have a functioning machine.
    With respect to your N4400 band saw should the single phase to 3Ø controller fail you will be with out your critical machinery until the controller is replaced, therefore I would recommend that a quality derated VSD/VFD be installed, in commercial applications we currently consider the brands SEW Eurodrive, Danfoss and Siemens safe bets and match the quality of the Hammer Saw.

    You might also find if the rewinding of the motor is unviable and that it's cheaper to install the Felder motor at $600, you could connect it to a direct start and fit a manual foot brake in lieu of the $450 electronic brake option.

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