Thread: Laguna v Hammer - which should I buy?

Hi.

Just have a look at previous post about Laguna and you will buy Hammer or Minimax.

Danlei,

Unfortunately, I think you'll find it almost impossible to get an objective and unbiased answer to your question, because I think you'd be very hard pressed to find someone who has actually used and had plenty of hands-on experience with both the machines that you've asked about. Watching a particular machine being used at a Wood Show (or even passing a few pieces of wood over a machine at a Woodshow) doesn't give anyone sufficient experience to advise you regarding what will be for you a fairly large machinery purchase.

If you search around this forum, you'll find a few threads where people have been dissatisfied with Laguna technical support in Australia. There doesn't seem to be similar threads about Hammer and Minimax on this forum. The absence of similar threads relating to poor Minimax or Hammer technical support doesn't mean that problems don't occur - it simply means that nobody has posted about those problems.

Before buying my Tablesaw, Bandsaw, and Planner/Thicknesser, I cast around the members of two woodworking clubs and one men's shed for their experiences. That covered about 70 woodworkers who were machinery owners. Of those people, the brands most frequently represented were Carbatec, Hafco, Woodman, Jet, Laguna, Minimax, Hammer, and then other less common brands, and brands no longer sold in Australia. Of the brands that are currently on sale in Australia, without fail there was at least one owner of each brand who was not satisfied with their machine, usually due to poor technical support.

The number of unsatisfied buyers of a particular brand was roughly proportional to the number of people in the group who owned that particular brand. Now - before anyone jumps on me from a big height - because the number of people I talked surveyed was statistically small, if you did a survey sampling a much larger group of people, you might get different results. The survey was unscientific and not performed in a very formal manner.

Why are people dissatisfied with their woodworking machinery ? Here again, I'll probably get someone jumping on me from a great height, but here goes - in no particular order:

1. The buyer was unlucky enough to buy a lemon (i.e. Poor attention to assembly or quality checking at the factory. Might have been scheduled for assembly or scheduled Quality Checking last thing before knock-off, and not enough attention was paid to detail.)
2. The owner only ever read enough of the owner's manual to assemble the machine, and sometimes not even that. About 30% of the people I spoke to admitted to myself and others present that they have never read the Owner's Manual for their machine "don't need to !".....
3. The owner bought the machine sight-unseen off the Internet from a reputable mainstream Australian dealer. About 50% of people I talked to said that they had at some time selected and bought a machine solely by looking at a few Reseller's Web Sites. They bought the machine without ever having been able to inspect the actual model machine. One person I talked to admitted that they bought their ######## brand combo machine sight-unseen, and after receiving it rapidly became dissatisfied with it as there were many aspects of the machine's design that were not as he imagined they would be. He eventually sold the machine at a substantial loss, and now doesn't have a good word to say about that brand.
4. The sales outlet that supplied the machine failed to prepare the machine in accordance with the buyer's expectations. In talking to people, it was surprising how many first time buyers of new woodwork machinery admitted that they had expected the seller to assemble, align, etc the machine before delivery, so that all the buyer had to do was plug it in. Quite a few first time new buyers admitted that they had automatically assumed that the seller would do that work prior to delivering the goods. Alternatively, some first time new buyers expected the delivery truck driver would unpack assemble and position the machine - much as you would expect to happen when you buy a new fridge or washing machine.
5. Lack of maintenance and repair manuals. This complaint was spread across many brands.
6. Lack of spare parts stocked on-hand in Australia. One bloke, whilst assembling the cast iron table extensions on his table saw, dropped one of the cast iron extensions on the concrete and cracked it. He is still complaining that he had to wait three months for a replacement part. Is it reasonable to expect the Australian agent to keep in stock in Australia, spares of a part that should in normal circumstances outlast the life of the machine ?
7. The Australian distributor lacks product knowledge, and/or the Australian distributor lacks the technical knowledge and experience to provide adequate technical support. Some brands were reported as much worse than others. Don't ask - to avoid legal action, I'm not saying which brands were reported as worst !
8. Some people reported problems (some big problems) obtaining support and parts for machines for which their re-seller is now no longer the Australian importer or authorised reseller. In the case of one brand of machinery, there used to be a whole swag of Australian resellers, and a wide range of machines from that brand were imported and sold by those re-sellers. Then another company sewed up a Sole Australian Importer & Distributor deal with the manufacturer, and the previous resellers were left unable to buy more stock, and unable to buy parts for the machines that they had previously sold, and if that particular model is not being imported by the new Importer, then that model of machine is now an orphan. Obviously, I'm trying hard not to name the brand for legal reasons. To be fair, the new Sole Australian Importer & Distributor for this brand seems to be trying to remedy this situation.
9. On many occasions, people expressed the opinion that brand xxxxxx was garbage, you should only ever buy brand yyyyyyyy. Almost every time this view was expressed, it turned out that the person was an owner of brand yyyyyyy, and that person had a reputation around the club for liking to bad mouth any other brand of machinery. Generally, this type of person has only had experience with one brand (the one they own) and so has nothing to compare their machine against, so their opinions are to be taken with a grain of salt. The bad mouthing is a kind of a sport for them I think, a bit like the old Fords are good, Holdens are junk arguments (or vice versa).
10. Some people complained that they were unable to get direct support from the actual manufacturer overseas. To an extent, that is to be expected. The Australian Importer has usually signed a contract with the manufacturer to import, sell and support the product in Australia, and in turn for supplying the support, the importer is entitled to various financial incentives. Often the reseller agreement says that the manufacturer undertakes to redirect any enquiries from Australia back to the Australian agent.
11. And lastly a general observation - woodworkers who are professionals buying machinery for a business, often prefer and will only buy or recommend the more expensive brands, because they are looking for longer life in professional use, and thus a better return on their investment. Everyone does some sort of cost versus benefits/features analysis when they buy an item of machinery. The results of that cost vs benefit analysis come out very differently for professional woodworkers looking for a machine that will be used heavily in a professional environment, versus hobby woodworkers who will generally use a machine comparatively lightly.

So, my advise to you is to personally examine each of the machines that you are considering buying. It's not practical for the reseller to have a demo unit of each model that they sell, set-up running in their business. So, ask if the reseller can recommend one of their customer's who might demo the machine for you. Make contacts through local Woodwork Clubs, Men's Sheds, and similar, and very likely you will find someone who owns the model of machine that you are looking at (unless you are looking at a newly released model), or a model that is close enough for some evaluation.

When you find posts on this or other forums, where the post is rubbishing a particular brand, or alternatively praising a particular brand, then be cautious when allowing that opinion to impact on your decision making process.

On the Chris Schwarz Blog on the Popular Woodworking Magazine web site, Chris recently wrote a series of posts discussing "How to Read a Tool Review (And How I Write Them)". You might find Chris' series of blog entries on this subject to be helpful. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...w-write-part-1

I hope this info is useful. Sorry for the long post.

Regards,

Roy

Some good advice there which will be a valuable document for those looking to go down the path of machinery purchases in the future.
I believe many will appreciate the time and comprehensive details you put into replying to the OP.

Best regards,

Alan...

Thank you for taking the time and effort to post such a thorough response. It made for interesting reading because many of the things you mentioned rang loud and clear. I have reports from 2 people who own the laguna and they are wrapped. I also have a report from someone who owns the hammer and he too is wrapped. However, a small club I know of has the hammer and have heard a number of complaints. However, my own thoughts on the club machine problems are that if there is the potential for a number of people to 'tinker' with adjustments and settings well that is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. I Would think that someone who wants to get the best out of their machine will read everything they are supposed to so as to ensure that the machine is operating at its optimum.
The reps for both companies have been very helpful and because we are buying 2 machines some discounts are being given. I mentioned the Purple Heart story demo to the hammer rep and he suggested I bring up another piece so we can replicate the laguna test. I live in Canberra and will have to go to Sydney for the demo. They are not open on Saturdays but he said he would be prepared to come in on a Saturday and do the demo. I have to say that's pretty impressive service.
From the research I have done on bandsaws generally a major consideration seems to be to use the right blade for the job you are doing. As dumb and obvious as that sounds, I get the impression that it does not matter how good your machine is, if you use the wrong blade you are only making more work for yourself. I know hammer have an excellent reputation. I can also get ceramic guides on the hammer but they cost an extra $500 whereas they are standard on the laguna. At this stage I think I will take up the offer from the hammer rep and drive to Sydney and see what sort of job his machine does.
once again, thanks for the response.

I eagerly await your response. I will be going throught the same thing early next year when my shed is build, and I have exactly the same dilema as I have narrowed my search down to the same 2 machines.

Overall and without quoting individual cases there would appear to be more unhappy Laguna owners than Hammer owners. I have seen reports that the 3800 now comes with ceramic guides or they can be fitted, a phone call would confirm that. No BS should need a driftmaster style fence if it is set up properly, a search of this forum will confirm that. Have a look at the links below, they may help.

https://www.google.com.au/search?cli...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

https://www.google.com.au/search?cli...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

some subjective feedback. I own a Hammer N4400. its bulletproof. I've run probably run a couple of thousand metres (ok perhaps im exagerating but a lot ok?) thru it and it has performed seamlessly every time. I have re-sawed with a 1 inch bi-metal blade from log down to fletches and some very fine work with a 6mm blade. when I ran the fine stuff i measured the blank and I had less than 0.5mm variation from top to bottom over a working height of 5 inches thru a length of 60 or so cm. having 4hp is a luxury and I love it.

cant talk of laguna but the hammer is ace. the euro style blade guides are very robust and easy to adjust.

get a hammer.

This morning I went down to Brisbane to do some business. While I was there, I took the opportunity to drop in on an old friend to bludge a cuppa and have a chat. The friend I met with is John. I won't give his last name as he was well known in the Brisbane woodworking world in his day, and these days he values his privacy.

John ran his own furniture manufacturing business in Brisbane for 40 years. After selling that business in 1995, he retired. He soon grew bored with being in idle retirement, so for the next ten years he ran a small business working part-time as a Woodwork Machinery Technician, working as a sub-contractor for most of the Woodwork Machinery Re-sellers in Brisbane at that time. The work he was doing was about 40% installing and commissioning industrial grade woodwork machinery, and the other 60% was doing warranty repair and post warranty repair work on behalf of re-sellers selling woodworking machinery into the home and small workshop market. John is 83 now, and he's been retired completely for about eight years now.

He still does soem woodworking, and has a small workshop in his two car garage, and is an active member of his local Men's Shed. During our discussion, he had a fair old rant about a certain brand of up-market bandsaw that his Men's Shed had purchased recently. In John's words - "When I grew up in the USA I saw Beavers that could cut a straighter line than that Bandsaw." We then went on to have a lengthy discussion about this particular bandsaw, which John is presently in the process of tuning and sorting out. I also told John about this forum discussion. And he decided that he had a few points to add.

John isn't computer savy, doesn't own a computer, and so isn't a member of this forum. So John asked me to post a few comments on this subject on his behalf. So, based on John's personal experiences providing warranty support on new Wood Working Machinery - here goes. John's looking over my shoulder as I type to make sure that I've got his views expressed correctly:

• Any Bandsaw is only as good as the blade you install in it. If you buy a gold plated up-market bandsaw, and install a cheap and nasty blade in it (or use the wrong type/tooth count/width of blade for the type of job) you will very effectively make the gold plated up-market bandsaw look and work like a dog of a machine. The same goes if you fail to tune your Bandsaw.
• Even a budget priced Bandsaw will perform a few hundred percent better (often like a much more expensive machine) if you put a high quality blade on it. One budget bandsaw reseller (who is no longer trading) had a standard way of resolving any customer complaints that a new bandsaw was not cutting well - they gave the customer a new high quality blade to try - and invariably the customer was then satisfied with their new machine.
• John told me, as an example, about a cheap Taiwanese Bandsaw that his Men's Shed bought used recently. The machine has a 200mm maximum depth of cut. Fitted with a quality carbon steel 3/4" 3 TPI blade, it still had difficulty re-sawing a clean cut on a 100mm thick piece of Silky Oak - the cut was rough and wandered, and the saw's motor kept bogging down. John got the club to buy a carbide tipped blade 3/4" and 2 TPI. John says that you wouldn't think it was the same machine, as with that new blade the machine is now able to re-saw 190 mm thick silky oak, producing a clean smooth cut, without the saw's motor bogging down, and it easily producies a 1.5mm veneer. That carbide blade cost half the price of the used bandsaw, but has made that budget bandsaw work like a much more expensive one, and the blade can be re-sharpened plenty of times.
• Most budget priced bandsaws come with a generic blade as part of the new package. That generic blade is usually "bu##er all good for anything". Toss the generic blade in the bin and buy a few good quality blades, in different width/TPI blades suited to the type of work you're doing. A few woodwork machinery re-sellers do sell quality blades, but the majority of woodwork machinery resellers sell cheap generic blades. Go to a dedicated Saw Blade company (e.g. Peacock Saws in Brisbane, as one example in Brisbane) and buy good quality blades specifically designed for the material you plan to cut.
• Many Australian timbers are much harder than the timbers typically encountered in Europe, North America, China, andTiawan. As a result, a good quality machine from Europe may well cut hard European timers well with standard Carbon Steel blades, but will need better quality blades when asked to do deep clean cuts in some of the tough Aussie hardwoods.
• If your bandsaw (usually the modern welded steel frame saws, rather than the older style cast iron frame saws) is unable to tension the blade enough to get a clean cut when sawing; compensate by using the widest blade the machine can handle on straight cuts (or the widest blade suited to the radius of the curvesi you are cutting). The wider blade will have much more "beam strength", which helps dramatically when you're trying to re-saw at close to the machine's maximum depth of cut. Caution: Most 14 inch two wheel bandsaws are designed to use a 0.025" thick blade. Don't try to use a thicker blade than specified for your machine to compensate for a lack of blade tension; the too thick blade will usually break early due to metal fatigue.
• Even the top of the market "gold plated" woodwork machinery brands occasionally import and sell a machine that has problems - usually as a result of poor quality control during assembly, and sometimes as a result of rough handling during shipment. All of the brands throughout the price range have quality control problems at some time or another. Quality control problems are not confined to the budget end of the price range. Paying a higher price sometimes guarantees better quality control during manufacture, but not always.
• Some people who encounter problems with their new machinery will "tell every man and his dog about the problems", and complain to all and sundry - usually complaining to people who can't fix the problem for them. Often these people don't talk to the re-seller about resolving the problem, until they've already made things worse by "fiddling with things they don't understand", or until they've tried modifying the machine to make it work the way they think it should work. The discussions these type of people have with their re-seller are more often along the lines of "you bastards sold me a dud and I demand an immediate refund" type of discussions, rather than business like discussions focused on achieving a fair and reasonable resolution of the issue.
• Another group of people, when they have problems with their new machinery, will quietly go about resolving the issues through business like discussion in person with the re-seller. The "quietly go about fixing the problem" approach is most often associated with buyers who've out-laid money in the middle to the top of the price range. The buyer's interest is in maintaining the brand's good reputation, so as to maximise their re-sale value in the event they ever want to sell that piece of machinery. This may explain why there are less "complaints" recorded against the more expensive brands of machinery, when in actual fact, the percentage rate of problems with new machinery was apparently roughly the same across the price range in the 1990s and 2000s, and probably hasn't changed much today.
• When you're selecting a Bandsaw to buy, sort out what you need it to do, and draw up a list of specifications. If you don't do that, you risk buying a machine that turns out to not have the capacity or capability to do what you require. If the thickest piece of timber you'll need to cut is, for example, 300 mm, don't go and buy a machine with a 305 mm maximum depth of cut. Very few Bandsaws can achieve the machine's best quality cut when running through a piece of timber that is very close to the machine's maximum depth of cut. If the maximum thickness timber you will be cutting will be 300mm thick, then select a saw with a maximum depth of cut 50 or 100 mm greater. The same for maximum width of cut - if you know that you will regularly want to run a 500 mm wide board through the saw, then buy a saw that that has a width of cut at least a 100mm wider.
• Learn to tune your bandsaw - otherwise you'll never get it to cut at it's best. Keep it clean and lubricated. Align the wheels. Track the blade correctly (Always in the centre of the tyre. The idea that the blade has to run off centre on the edge of the tyre to keep the teeth off the blade is an old wives tale). Tension the blade adequately. If your machine has a blade de-tensioning level, use it - don't leave the blade under tension for long period of no use. Adjust the blade guides correctly. Align the table perpendicular (or accurately to the angle you require, if you are not cutting at 90 degrees) to the blade. Adjust the Fence to be parallel to the saw cut. And always lower the top guide down till it is about 20mm above the piece of timber (less on very thin timber). Leaving the top blade guide raised way above the work piece is a common cause of poor cut quality.
• As for whether it is good value to buy an expenive professional workshop quality machine to use occasionally in a home, hobby, or small business workshop? Well that's easy to answer - if you have the money burning a hole in your pocket, go ahead and spend it, if that's what you want. But if money is constrained in your household or business, then less expensive machines will most likely offer the quality of cut you're after, and in a home or hobby workshop the machines will probably outlive you, if they are looked after well. When john first started his own business, he bought a budget 8 inch jointer. A year later, when he had more money available, he wanted a wider jointer. After looking at the budget brand 12 inch jointer, he decided to spend about three times as much money on a high quality 12 inch jointer. After 40 years in business, regular annual maintenance, and roungly the same mount of work on eacg machine over that period of time, both machines were still working well when the business was sold. So, maybe the budget 12 inch machine would have been adequate, and would still have lasted 39 years in that business - it would certainly have saved John a lot of money if he'd bought the less expensive machine.

So, that's John's "ten cents worth".

Originally Posted by AussieRoy

The idea that the blade has to run off centre on the edge of the tyre to keep the teeth off the blade is an old wives tale).

This is wrong. Some wheels are cambered and should be centred and some are flat and ride on the edge of the wheel. My saw for instance (a Mininmax) has flat wheels and has to be run at the edge. The factory is very explicit in this and in fact it won't run on centre at all as the tracking won't allow it to. I still think the cambered wheel is best as it allows a better set up to eliminate drift.

The Hammer is cambered, I run the gullet on the midline of the wheels.

Yes another vote for the Hammer N4400, but I corrupted a mate and he got a N3800 and is more than happy with it. I ask him how the Tack Hammer is going and he gets a look of supreme satisfaction on his face . . .

I purchased another brand of 500mm band saw and have spent considerable time tuning it to get it to perform "better." I can only echo the advice given by AussieRoy in both posts. It serves no purpose to "rip it into" a supplier when problems are encountered.

Yes I have had some hard decisions & issues with the purchase & setup, not the least being the different specifications of the one "identical" machine through various suppliers - particularly the blade guides & perhaps other items that are less identifiable (bearings, motor specs etc???). My decision point once I narrowed it to one machine of choice was - Is supplier X's model with the "cheaper" guides & the dolly setup available locally with out the "+ freight" a better value proposition than supplier Y's model with slightly better guides + freight & no dolly OR the models from brand X,Y or Z????

In the end I opted for the locally available machine - its colour matched the rest of my machines.

It was a known quantity with a reasonable reputation at least it wasn't being bagged on the forums. I could physically examine the BS, it was already here on their shop floor without damage, but it did not have the guides I wanted. For less total outlay than the "shipped in" competitors version with the slightly "better" guides I could purchase far superior guides than both variants offered from another manufacturer who makes them for the USA variant of the machine. The BS was already assembled - another plus. Well sort of! I "re-assembled" it to make sure everything was there and correctly assembled. The instructions supplied were OK, not well written but sufficiently legible & I could at least grasp their intent. Some of the parts could not be assembled per the instructions - physically impossible - like the offset of the blade running CL to the table alignment. Obviously the manufacture had changed the manufacturing process & design since the manual was written. The instructions were not written in Chinglish but not much better!

A very significant failing I see with the supply of wood working machinery in Australia today is the supply of RTA machines that require significant user input and skill to assemble & tune to obtain a high performing machine. The supply chain is also doomed to create problems for the customer & the supplier but that is what we have because of our vast continent and relatively small market. Both parties place a lot of faith in the logistics supply chain.

Very few customers would be prepared to pay an extra $500 or more to have a machine delivered, assembled, setup & tuned. So what is a better model? We only get what we are prepared to pay for!

All I can say is pick the best value proposition in your situation & opinion then be prepared to spend the time to learn to set it up well & to tune it for your projects.

Hi Danlei

My first thought was 'if you like the Laguna, then get the Laguna'. Perfectionists are cursed with pre- and post purchase trauma that casts doubt on whether the purchase made could not have been better. There is always going to be better. Unless it is necessary, get over it.

Then I had a couple of thoughts that spurred me to write something more constructive.

Just for reference, I have the Hammer 4400, and am very happy with it. It is a solid and dependable machine. It runs off a 20 amp socket, which was specially installed for it. I use bimetal 1/2" blades for everything, and it has seen me through the past 5 or so years. It looks well made enough to go 50 more, at the least. It has power to spare (4 hp ... although I gather the new ones are 3.5) and this has been an absolute boon when resawing the local hardwoods in WA.

What I have learned is that the 20 amp socket is probably unnecessary. I did the installation "by the book", and I say this if the thought of 20 amps is putting you off. I recently bought and installed a Hammer A3-31 jointer-thicknesser. It also is meant to be 20 amps. It runs comfortably off 15 amps, and probably could run off 10 amps. Many run their 4400s off 15 amps.

Secondly, the Hammer 3800 is 2 hp. I do not think that is enough if you are looking at the long term. 3 hp would be my minimum.

The resaw capacity is is similar for all the machines. Don't overthink this area. It is irrelevant unless you have a very wide jointer. The Rule of Thumb is to match the resaw capacity of the bandsaw with the width of a jointer (unless you plan to use handplanes on wide boards). The 4400 has a resaw capacity of about 11 1/2", while the A3-31 is 12" wide. That is a good match. If all you have is a 8" jointer, and you do not use handplanes, then you are likely to end up slicing up those wide boards that you so carefully resawed!

Perhaps the Laguna is looking better now (it is 3 hp) ... but what about the 4400 instead? Is their price so different?

Lastly, what of reliability and backup service? I cannot comment here about Laguna in Oz, or even Hammer in your area. I get good service from Hammer in WA.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I must say I have been super impressed by the opinions, experiences, expertise and guidance by all the constructive posts that the members have provided. It's so nice to see so many people who appear to be genuinely interested in trying to help.
I have procrastinated so much over the decision because while this will be my first bandsaw, I am hoping it will also be my last ie buying a machine that will do everything I need and not having to upgrade a few years down the track. There is bugger all difference in cost between the 3800 and the 4400 so if I buy Hammer I might as well get the bigger one.
As far as size goes, less than 10% of my cuts would involve timber wider than around 250mm so both machines will handle that. I noted the comments about the quality of blades and it has always been my view to get the best blade I can possibly afford. From my own work experience I know how big a difference it makes using inferior/poor quality saw blades, drill bits, router bits etc.
I am also one of those guys who can get a little 'precious' about maintenance and looking after my tools. If I am going to spend hard earned dollars ( and in this case quite a few of them) it's an absolute waste if I don't look after it and have it set up properly.
Laguna are out of stock until the end of the year so the plan is to visit Sydney and let the Hammer rep do his demo for me and then I will make a decision. Hopefully, early in the new year I shall have made my purchase and have it up and running. I shall post some comments after that. In the meantime, thanks again one and all for the constructive assistance.

In my opinion, Wood Slicer from Highland Hardware is the best resaw blade at a reasonable price. . . . (Under $100)


Now I am going to bunker down, get the kevlar jacket and flame retardant blanket for the scornful replies