Thread: Discuss - Going off grid

Hi Bob,
I'm a little confused.
Is it possible? of course it is. Do you want to pay for it? thats up to you.
Whats your alternative?
You arent thinking about getting an off grid solar system with goverment rebates are you?(as I understand it, thats not going to happen)

Are you somewhere that you can be off grid anyway?

Stuart

This question is similar to that one about the length of a piece of string.

It comes down to things like location and how you want to live. If you only use hand tools, wash everything by hand, heat with firewood, use LED lighting, and don't use an airconditioner or have any other high draw appliances, then going off grid is cheap. If you want all these things it's expensive.

Originally Posted by Bob Willson

Hi
I am still pondering the advisability of solar panels given the huge cost of installation (~$11.5k)
Does anyone have any good information about storage options for off grid and is it really possible given todays current technology and costs?

My uneducated view ...... at this stage I don't think it is viable to go off grid with the current technology and costs, particularly if you have the grid available, and you want to maintain the level of comfort that you are used to.

I do think that there will be a point in the future that off grid storage will become a somewhat viable option, particularly if electricity prices continue to rise and the technology and price of storage options is more favourable.

It wasn't all that long ago that even putting on solar in an area with ability to connect to the grid was economically unviable. Through improvements in technology, government rebates, higher demand, lower prices etc. the installation of solar in areas with grid connection became a viable option for many. The viability has been a bit of a roller coaster ride with the varied tariffs available and the different quality in components being used, but none the less it has made solar viable.

I would think that with such a high uptake of solar in the recent years, when the tariffs start to fall away, and the electricity prices begin to rise, many current users will be looking for alternatives to store their own power generated through the day to use at night, rather than have to sell it for next to nothing whilst it is being generated, only to be forced to pay the higher prices when it is needed again at night. If the solar industry is wise they should be really ramping up the research into storage options to catch the wave of existing solar customers who are needing to look at storage. I am sure that there are many solar companies who have jumped on the bandwagon and are only interested in doing as many installations as possible while the wave is high. The recent number of companies who have gone under would suggest that the wave is about to break for many and to remain viable they really need to gear up to supply the next wave of storage demand.

We are in the process of getting ready to build our new house, and have seriously considered going off grid. The preliminary cost so far, and they are decreasing, is circa $60,000. But then that is to have a household effectively function as if it was grid connected.

The breakup is roughly 50% battery cost with the balance being solar panels and controllers/inverter etc.

Originally Posted by Stustoys

Hi Bob,
I'm a little confused.
Is it possible? of course it is. Do you want to pay for it? thats up to you.
Whats your alternative?
You arent thinking about getting an off grid solar system with goverment rebates are you?(as I understand it, thats not going to happen)

Are you somewhere that you can be off grid anyway?

Stuart

I realise that it is possible and as to whether or not I want to pay for it ... that depends on the costs ibnvolved and other solutions involved. The alternative is lots of solar for water and electricity and storing the power if possible.
So far as I am aware, the government will not give me money to help me go off grid.
Anyone can be off grid anywhere. Just don't pay your bill and see what happens

Originally Posted by BobL

This question is similar to that one about the length of a piece of string.

It comes down to things like location and how you want to live. If you only use hand tools, wash everything by hand, heat with firewood, use LED lighting, and don't use an airconditioner or have any other high draw appliances, then going off grid is cheap. If you want all these things it's expensive.

I want continue to live in Brisbane and follow pretty much the same lifestyle that I presently have. I use lots of power tools and I already have some LED lighting, but I also want use an air conditioner.
At present, I also have bottled gas for both hot water and cooking.
I would need to power the microwave, and clothes washer as well as various kitchen appliances and a few computers.

I know it CAN be done, the question is whether it is worth it both financially and just so I can give the finger to the electricity companies.

Originally Posted by Sir Stinkalot

My uneducated view ...... at this stage I don't think it is viable to go off grid with the current technology and costs, particularly if you have the grid available, and you want to maintain the level of comfort that you are used to.

I do think that there will be a point in the future that off grid storage will become a somewhat viable option, particularly if electricity prices continue to rise and the technology and price of storage options is more favourable.

It wasn't all that long ago that even putting on solar in an area with ability to connect to the grid was economically unviable. Through improvements in technology, government rebates, higher demand, lower prices etc. the installation of solar in areas with grid connection became a viable option for many. The viability has been a bit of a roller coaster ride with the varied tariffs available and the different quality in components being used, but none the less it has made solar viable.

I would think that with such a high uptake of solar in the recent years, when the tariffs start to fall away, and the electricity prices begin to rise, many current users will be looking for alternatives to store their own power generated through the day to use at night, rather than have to sell it for next to nothing whilst it is being generated, only to be forced to pay the higher prices when it is needed again at night. If the solar industry is wise they should be really ramping up the research into storage options to catch the wave of existing solar customers who are needing to look at storage. I am sure that there are many solar companies who have jumped on the bandwagon and are only interested in doing as many installations as possible while the wave is high. The recent number of companies who have gone under would suggest that the wave is about to break for many and to remain viable they really need to gear up to supply the next wave of storage demand.

Thanks for that POV (point of view) stinky.
I don't think that your POV is uneducated. You may not have all the answers at your fingertips, but the answer that you give certainly demonstrates a fair degree of thought and thoughtfulness.

Originally Posted by cava

We are in the process of getting ready to build our new house, and have seriously considered going off grid. The preliminary cost so far, and they are decreasing, is circa $60,000. But then that is to have a household effectively function as if it was grid connected.

The breakup is roughly 50% battery cost with the balance being solar panels and controllers/inverter etc.

Thanks for that cava, at least that is a more or less firm indication of the costs involved. It would appear from the figures that you are intending to geberate about 15Kw of power hour if the solar panels etc are going to cost you around $30K. Would you really need that much generation capacity? That is roughly the equivalent of 100Kw per day. Even if we assume that you used half of that during the day, that leaves 50Kw to be used during the evening. I have a fairly large air conditioner but that only uses 8Kw per hour if I run it at full blast. How much power do the intended batteries store?

I don't have the kW/h figures in front of me, however the house has a significant load. Consider a dishwasher pulls 2 kW, oven circa 3 kW, refrigerator on start up circa 1.3 kW, clothes washer circa 2 kW etc etc. Heating and lighting is not so much of a concern for you, us Mexicans need it in bucket loads 4 months of the year at a time when there is less sun - hence the storage capacity.

As an observation from another forum to do with this topic, that I frequent, there is more early morning cloud than there used to be that impacts on solar gain.

If I was going off grid I would be looking at other forms of heating, both water and house, than electric.

When we built our house on acreage we looked very seriously at geothermal heating, becoming quite popular in the US, but couldn't really get much info in Oz, this was 13 years ago.

Digging into Geothermal | Intercon

Rather than building a generating/storage system to do what you do at present when connected to the grid, I would first look at how you can do things differently, ie do you really need a dishwasher?

What we need to do now is develop the batacitor.
This was first posited by Philip José Farmer, a now deceased S/F writer who wrote a series of books called "The Fabulous River Boat"
The batacitor had the following properties:
A giant step-down transformer of aluminum took the energy three times a day, sent it through Brobdignagian aluminum wires to a two-story device known as a batacitor. This was a late-twentieth-century electronic discovery that could accept hundreds of kilovolts in a hundredth of a microsecond and could discharge it at any rate from a tenth of a volt to one hundred kilovolts...

Originally Posted by Bob Willson

. . .Anyone can be off grid anywhere. Just don't pay your bill and see what happens .

Not in WA - you can have your supply disconnected (till you pay up) but you are still liable for a connection/supply charge - not sure if this has been fully tested in court but you can bet if people start dropping out there'll be new regs to attend to that.

Originally Posted by Bob Willson

This was a late-twentieth-century electronic discovery that could accept hundreds of kilovolts in a hundredth of a microsecond and could discharge it at any rate from a tenth of a volt to one hundred kilovolts...

This information is useless without details about the current.
10^5 V at 10^-10A in 10-8s = 1kW (not outside the range of possibilities in a Physics lab)
10^5 V at 1A in 10-8s = 10 TW (thats EMP territory)

Originally Posted by BobL

This information is useless without details about the current.
10^5 V at 10^-10A in 10-8s = 1kW (not outside the range of possibilities in a Physics lab)
10^5 V at 1A in 10-8s = 10 TW (thats EMP territory)

Farmer was a science fiction writer, not an electrician.

Hi Bob,
You mean "can I personally pay for an off grid system that will be cheaper than the grid without huge changes to my current lifestyle"?
I'd say no not likely. Even some of the larger private systems I am aware of can still have TOU issues.

Still it does seem to make a great hobby for some(hey if it was cheap enough I'd have a go at it). Firsts you need to know is how much power you use, when you use it and what your peak load is. + how many days you want to be able to get by without much sun. What are you going to do when you run out of power?

Originally Posted by BobL

Not in WA - you can have your supply disconnected (till you pay up) but you are still liable for a connection/supply charge - not sure if this has been fully tested in court but you can bet if people start dropping out there'll be new regs to attend to that

What he said.
If the grid is there you have to pay for it.
If I recall correctly(bearing in mind I wasnt around at the time), I think you'll find its one of the ways they got the grid biult in the first place. Its there, you pay for it whether you choose to use it or not. Same for water, same for sewer etc etc.

Stuart

Originally Posted by Sir Stinkalot

and the technology and price of storage options is more favourable.

Lead acid batteries are still the way to go as far as I am award.

Originally Posted by Sir Stinkalot

I would think that with such a high uptake of solar in the recent years, when the tariffs start to fall away, and the electricity prices begin to rise, many current users will be looking for alternatives to store their own power generated through the day to use at night, rather than have to sell it for next to nothing whilst it is being generated, only to be forced to pay the higher prices when it is needed again at night.

Not B##### likely! I paid for those cells and they are for grid tired systems only. They are not allowed to be islanded.(of course there would be ways to do it)

Stuart

Originally Posted by Big Shed

ie do you really need a dishwasher?

Don't be stupid.....what else is she good for? *ducks*