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  1. #1
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    Default Off grid 3 phase solar power

    G'day all,

    I've done a little research but when you dont know what you're looking for it can be a glut of information.

    Simply put I am intersted in finding out about battery storage power for my home and shed. I would like to have 3 phase to run as much as a 10 hp motor.

    Also want to run a cyclone dust extractor and everything required for a house including heating and cooling.

    Where to start?

    DaveTTC
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  3. #2
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    G'day Dave

    I'm not the guy to answer this with any real knowledge, but I think you're screwed for 10hp. I suspect it will be just way too many amps being dragged out of a battery (18A at 415v)

    I'm not sure if the Tesla is the biggest battery on the market, but it is 13.2kWh. That will run a 2400 watt (10A 240v) whatever for ~5.5 hours. But they're pretty pricey at around $10k, and by the sound of it you would need two, plus about $10-12k in solar panels to run them. Batteries will be much more feasible in 4-5 years I reckon.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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    I'm very interested to see where this thread goes.

    As far as I'm aware battery storage is only single phase. I'm sure there are three phase options, but without having to sell both your kidneys I don't know of any options available? Plus the ones that I do know about are generally for backup purposes rather than going off the grid completely.

    Is there a particular reason for going solar? I've got a mate that couldn't get three phase from the street and ended up going down the generator diesel generator route definitely cheaper and more reliable then solar

  5. #4
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    Can be done, just costs a bit more than I would suggest you would like to spend.

    I have been waiting for the flow batteries to come down in price, which they should do probably at the end of this year as they are shifting manufacturing from Mexico to Asia, Thailand I believe.

    https://faq.zcell.com/category/1/zcell-technology.html

    Pretty much living in remote regions you could just purchase one of their standard shipping containers with (I think) 64 of their units inside.

    http://redflow.com/wp-content/upload...16_Digital.pdf


    I would suggest you work out in Watts just what your requirements are, or what you wish to have, then sit down and work out how many solar panels would be required to generate in real time those Watts.

    Some food for thought.

    Mick.

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    A quote from a PDF on Powerwalls:
    Does Powerwall work for 3-phase homes? DC Powerwall 2 when paired with a compatible 3-phase Fronius hybrid inverter (Symo Hybrid) can be connected to 3-phase homes. AC Powerwall 2 does not produce 3- phase output. It can be however connected to a single phase on a 3-phase home. 3 AC Powerwalls can also be connected one on each phase of a 3-phase home.

    See here:
    https://www.google.com.au/search?cli....0.-HdP2wYNPkQ

    third one down (marked PDF)
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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    As solar is DC, eventually for completely off grid connections I envisage it might even be be more efficient to use DC motors that run direct from the batteries as no inverter losses would be incurred.

    The other option is a modified VFD, some smaller VFDs take X Volts single phase AC and turn it into DC and then back into 3Phase X Volts. I can even eventually envisage a class of VFD becoming available that uses Direct DC input from batteries. It's kinda what the 3Phase solar systems would be using to make the 3P.

  8. #7
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    Thank you all thus far. This would be a good two years off if things go well.

    I like to start my research early and I know batteries etc should only get better.

    On your point FF ... do more batteries equal more amps? Or is it that the batteries are only x amps

    DaveTTC
    The Turning Cowboy
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    Opps ... typos. Go figure, who would ever think me to post without proof reading

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    Well I'm pretty much out of my depth after that, but I imagine that three batteries (or battery sets) hooked up as three phase could probably do it. 10hp would be around 10 amps per battery (if I understand it correctly). Much better for someone like Bob to answer that.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveTTC View Post
    Thank you all thus far. This would be a food two years off if things go well.
    I like to start my research early and I know batteries etc shoyld only fet better.
    On your point FF ... do more batteries equal more amps? Or is it that the batteries are only x amps
    Depends how they are connected and the batteries themselves
    Generally more batteries =
    more amps at same volts for a set time
    or More volts at same amps for a set time
    or same amount of amps and volts but for longer time.

    You might not be using your 10HP motor for long periods so even a small battery bank might contain 10HP for the time you need it
    BUT
    It may not be able to deliver the amps at a fast enough rate to run a 10HP motor.
    Batteries have limits as to how quickly they can get their amps in and out, too fast and they overheat and can be permanently damaged.

  11. #10
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    The other thing that concerned me was the initial start up draw for a 10hp induction motor - it may be brief but it could be high enough to fry a battery?
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    The other thing that concerned me was the initial start up draw for a 10hp induction motor - it may be brief but it could be high enough to fry a battery?
    Ah ha - that's another reason for using a VFD (or a slow start device) - slow start will keep the start up power requirements at a reasonable level.

  13. #12
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    Back in the 'old days' before electricity was an option, out forebears plonked a big steam engine/water wheel/windmill at one end of the workshop and ran a drive shaft through (usually) the roof with pulleys and belts to drive each individual machine. Being the mechanical handyman that I know you are, I think you would be better off to consider this rather than living at the 'bleeding edge' of green power generation and storage? I totally agree that a drive shaft across the workshop is SO 19th Century but it's modern equivalent is well worth a look. There was an article in FWW a few years ago about an (I think) Amish woodworker, whose religion prevented the use of electricity. He ran a fabulous workshop with a diesel powered hydraulic pump outside in a separate building and replaced all electric motors with hydraulic! Hydraulic motors do not fry if they stall, they remain very 'torquey' at all speeds and, at the motor end, they are relatively quiet. Just close your eyes and think of this;
    • You wake in the morning, have breakfast with the family, stroll down to the engine shed
    • check that yesterday's delivery of rapeseed oil from the fish and chip shop has settled
    • start the bio-fuelled diesel hydraulic pump that you scavenged from the back of a wrecked mini concrete truck
    • walk to the machine shop and turn on the electric lights because you are NOT Amish
    • turn the proportioning valve on the lathe and it rumbles into life
    • turn up a 3 legged stool and sit on the shed verandah before realising that you are feeling hungry (mostly because of the faint smell of fish and chips)
    • head back into the house where your solar bank and single phase power supply have powered the fresh bread cooker
    • say hello again to your family who hadnt known where you were because they can't hear the muffled rumbling of the hydraulic pump up at the house ..... but were wondering where the smell of fish and chips was coming from
    • REPEAT above in the afternoon

    As electric passenger vehicles become available, and hence more popular, electric commercial vehicles will soon follow. There will then be hydraulic pumps and motors available at scrap prices all over the place. All that will be required is welding up suitable mounts, turning couplers and crimping fittings on to hydraulic hoses.
    fletty
    a rock is an obsolete tool ......... until you don’t have a hammer!

  14. #13
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    I saw your name pop up and thought ... Yes, a power man! Why didnt I think of you earlier?

    Well I cant say it was the reply I was expecting but interesting none the less.

    I feel a need to sit infront of your fire pit, sip on a bottle, I mean glass of port, and discuss this further.

    DaveTTC
    The Turning Cowboy
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  15. #14
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    Battery storage is obscenely expensive and despite predictions not likely to get much cheaper in the future. That said, 3 phase is achievable on a single battery bank. Some of the Victron inverter models can be configured in 3 phase mode by connecting 3 of the same model inverters together and configuring the inverters to suit. If you want to go the Solar route the best way is to have the largest possible array you can afford and do all your work during the day when solar output is at it's maximum. Configure your battery bank to supply minimal loads overnight and the system would be workable. Three of these inverters would do the trick, Victron Energy Phoenix Inverter 48V 5000VA-4500W factor in a 48 volt battery bank and around 10kw of solar panel capacity. Don't worry about adding up the cost, it will make your eyes water.

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by acropolite View Post
    Battery storage is obscenely expensive and despite predictions not likely to get much cheaper in the future.
    That interests me because all the information I have been able to access here and OS says otherwise. I am not saying you are wrong but it seems to go against the prevailing school of thought. I wouldn't think batteries for Dave's use would be a starter anyway but who knows what will happen in the future.
    CHRIS

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