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  1. #46
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    Brett

    I'm frequently amazed at how you research and come up with solutions to problems and you have my sincere admiration in that regard. However, in this instance I am starting to wonder if you are trying to reinvent the wheel .

    With under table routers there are some fundamentals that have to be respected and in the case where you are starting from scratch you need very good reasons to flaunt them.

    Firstly, the router needs to be of sufficient power. 3HP is pretty much a given or anything over 2100 watts. Actually 2250 watts is 3HP, but let's not get pedantic. For all those who jump up and down and say my 2HP machine is doing just fine, remember I am talking about starting from scratch. In fact my first "under the table" was a 2HP Ryobi, the second was a Hitachi M12V and now the large Triton.

    Secondly we require variable speed so we can slow the machine when using larger diameter bits. Without this facility you are going to push the safety boundaries as eventually you will use a large diameter bit.

    Thirdly it must have a 1/2" collet. Forget anything that hasn't got this. There is normally an adapter to enable the use of 1/4". I haven't seen 8mm router bits since the days of my ancient, deceased Ryobi from last century! Wherever possible always use a 1/2" shank even for a 1/8" straight bit.

    Fourthly bit changing above the table is a real bonus. There are extensions available (x-treme or some such name I think) but this places extra, unwanted sideways pressure on the bits and should only be used if there is no alternative. Only the Triton offers this ordinarily. However the "lifts" make this possible for most routers

    The router plates with their wind up mechanisms are superbly made. The plates have inserts to allow a wide range of diameter bits to be used safely and allow bit changing above the table. If you are concerned about sawdust clogging the winder hole don't be. I just know you will organise a close to perfect DE system and for the three grains you miss there is always a quick blast with the air compressor or a suck of the vac.

    The Triton router, which you already have is ideal for positioning under a table. In fact, as I think you have also found, I am not too fussed about using it hand held as I find it top heavy so I only use under a table. If you don't use the Triton under a table and you don't like using it hand held, what will you use it for? As Tony mentioned, even if you replace it down the track, the uni lift, and probably the other offerings, accept different machines with very little adaptation neccessary.

    The large Hitachi and large Makita with variable speed options would be good machines also.

    Apologies if I sound dismissive of all your good work so far. It is just that we already have the wheel .

    Of course if you want to do large production runs you should be discarding this router thing all together and go with Pat's suggestion of a spindle moulder, which is a superior machine, but not so versatile and those cutters are expensive! You might spend $500 and end up with fifty cutters for a router (assuming a few sets here as well as individual bits) but the same thing for a spindle moulder will set you back thousands of $$$.

    In summary I would go with one of the lifts to suit whatever router (240V plunge) you decide upon and spend the money you save on your precision fences and dust extraction.

    I wish I could find the router cabinet a character called Dizzy built, but I think he got sick or died and the web link has disappeared.

    Trusting that I am still persona grata chez Brett (how's that for a few mixed metaphors ) I will await multiple replies and/or further threads .

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

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  3. #47
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    Well, you're partially right and other things are partially covered....

    The Suhner is variable speed 2500-23,500 and it's 1800 Swiss watts (as opposed to Chinese "how many should we print on it" watts).

    European router bits are 8mm and 12mm, and there is a 12mm collet for the Suhner. However, I agree that lack of ½" would be a bit of a pain in restricting the bits available.

    I would sell the Triton more than likely.



    I did have a rather left-field thought - what's the story with getting motors rewound.....can a 110v be pulled apart and rewound to 240v?

    Alas, you may well be proved right Paul, and I may have to go with the version that Gregory's are selling. It's JessEm's international version apparently, so maybe it's available in the UK for a sensible price.....bit of Google....apparently Rutlands have them....yep here they are ...no savings to be had though.

    but what I DID find was this little sucker
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bosch-GMF1...-/161199206606

    a little under powered but not too bad. I don't see me using monster bits.

    More research coming up....
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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  4. #48
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    ooOOOOoooo this might be even closer still as long as the body is no more than 3½" then that should do the trick.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    Well, you're partially right and other things are partially covered....

    The Suhner is variable speed 2500-23,500 and it's 1800 Swiss watts (as opposed to Chinese "how many should we print on it" watts).

    European router bits are 8mm and 12mm, and there is a 12mm collet for the Suhner. However, I agree that lack of ½" would be a bit of a pain in restricting the bits available.

    I would sell the Triton more than likely.



    I did have a rather left-field thought - what's the story with getting motors rewound.....can a 110v be pulled apart and rewound to 240v?

    Alas, you may well be proved right Paul, and I may have to go with the version that Gregory's are selling. It's JessEm's international version apparently, so maybe it's available in the UK for a sensible price.....bit of Google....apparently Rutlands have them....yep here they are ...no savings to be had though.

    but what I DID find was this little sucker
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bosch-GMF1...-/161199206606

    a little under powered but not too bad. I don't see me using monster bits.

    More research coming up....
    Looks like a nice unit and a bigger version of the one that DeWalt make. (Combination fixed and plunge). The body is not uniformly round. I don't know how much difference that makes.

    A$835 plus freight!!

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    ooOOOOoooo this might be even closer still as long as the body is no more than 3½" then that should do the trick.
    Looks like the same model, but without the fixed base assembly. Same question over body shape. What is the advantage over the larger Makita (2100W) or Hitachi (2000W) variable speed machines?

    There is no substitute for grunt when it comes to routers. Yes, a piddly little rounding over bit can be driven by a laminate trimmer, but see even a powerful router bog down when you get stuck in with a TGV bit, a large straight bit or a moulding cutter.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chas View Post
    Be very carefull, the use of this type of transformer (autotransformer) is expressly prohibited by Australian SAA Wiring Rules AS3000. To quote: "4.28.4.2 Prohibited use. Autotransformers shall not be used for reducing or controlling the voltage to equipment which is likely to be handled in normal use." For safety reasons you will need an Isolation Step-down transformer, which will be very expensive.

    Chas.
    Good point and Interesting interpretation... the key phrase in there is "likely to be handled in normal use" .... you are not likely to handle the live wires in an appliance like a router in normal use.

    An autotransformer like a variac is different in that you are quite likely to use it to power low voltage devices which have exposed wiring and are "likely to be handled in normal use".

    I can't see that running a 110V double insulated applicance from an autotransformer is any different to running a double insulated applicance from the mains.

    The relevant clause in the SAA is 1.19.3 ( referenced from 4.28.4.4 )
    Which clarifies the matter as follows...

    The voltage within any applicance or equipment may be reduced by a device such as a resistor, inductor or autotransformer, and may be applied to external component parts of such an applicance or equipment provided that -

    a) all parts of the applicance or equipment, and all external component parts supplied therefrom, are insulated between the live parts and exposed metal for the full rated voltage of the circuit to which the applicance or equipment is connected; and

    b) each such component part is clearly and indelibly marked with the rated voltage of the applicance or equipment as a whole and with particulars of the relationship of that component to the main appliance or equipment.


    That $175 autotransformer is fine, and used for powering 110v double insulated appliances is in compliance with SAA rules.

    Ray

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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    I did have a rather left-field thought - what's the story with getting motors rewound.....can a 110v be pulled apart and rewound to 240v?
    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    That $175 autotransformer is fine, and used for powering 110v double insulated appliances is in compliance with SAA rules. Ray
    So or ??

    Ray, thank you for an obviously extensive amount of reading and consideration. I wonder how confident I should be (given that Auto transformers are apparently not supposed to be used here)?



    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Looks like the same model, but without the fixed base assembly. Same question over body shape. What is the advantage over the larger Makita (2100W) or Hitachi (2000W) variable speed machines?

    There is no substitute for grunt when it comes to routers.
    Agreed on the power aspect Paul, but have you seen somewhere that the Makita or Hitachi can be removed from the plunge base? If not, they won't work, and looking at the Makita.com.au site they don't have one that comes apart.

    Btw, I had an email overnight from JessEm to say that the Bosch should fit. The non-uniform body shape shouldn't matter I don't think (and I presume that you mean the square sectionfor registration at the front of the body) because the Lift grabs the body at four points so that could be set between two of them.

    I might have to drop into Sydney Tools to have a close look (and their price is good too).
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post



    Agreed on the power aspect Paul, but have you seen somewhere that the Makita or Hitachi can be removed from the plunge base? If not, they won't work, and looking at the Makita.com.au site they don't have one that comes apart.
    Brett

    I know this is all a little confusing and I have to say that it may be me that is confused. However it is my understanding that JessEm make at least two different router lifts.

    There is this which you originally identified in your very first post, but it is intended for the US market where fixed base routers predominate and will only accept fixed base router (with their fixed base removed).

    Mast-R-Lift.jpg

    I believe that your initial attraction to this model was the very appealing pricing.

    The model to which I am referring is the one mentioned by Tony, which is available in Oz through Gregory Machinery and this accepts plunge routers without the need to remove the plunge mechanism. They identify a number of routers that are compatible in that they have a pre-drilled base. I also so note that they can supply a blank base and in effect this means that any plunge router will fit. However I would put a call into them regarding this aspect if you decided to pursue it.

    JessEm Router R Lift.jpg

    Most routers can be removed from their base whether fixed or plunge, but the issue is more the shape and diameter of the body and whether that will adapt to the clamping mechanism of the router lift.

    The people who make up their CNC routers in effect do what you have researched and contemplated except that theirs is an overhead setup and yours is table mounted.

    It does seem to me that any savings you might make with the plate for the fixed base style would be negated by the fussing and expense of procuring a suitable router. On top of that there is the question of will it work.

    Of course if you looked at this suggestion of Tony's you would also have to compare the Uni-lift and anything else. The Incra lift is the built by JessEm for Incra and I noted that it has five hole inserts.

    Incra.jpg

    Still plenty of room for some research .

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    I wonder how confident I should be (given that Auto transformers are apparently not supposed to be used here)?
    No fireworks or explosions, autotransformers are perfectly safe for this application, there are no regulations against their use. ( except where you can contact live terminals in normal handling. )

    And in our case where the applicance is double insulated, it's no different to plugging into a normal power outlet.

    Ray

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    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    No fireworks or explosions, autotransformers are perfectly safe for this application, there are no regulations against their use, except where you can contact live terminals in normal handling.

    Ray
    That's a very loose interpretation of the regs Ray. The regulations don't mention live terminals, they just say likely to be handled in normal use. They also say are insulated between the live parts and exposed metal for the full rated voltage of the circuit to which the appliance or equipment is connected;
    I don't know what the 110V motors are rated to but we are connecting them to a 240V circuit. An autotranny has no separation between primary and secondary and has the potential to apply full voltage to the output. Hence their restriction of use.
    That's my interpretation anyway. I still think it's way too much messing around when there are other options available.
    Those were the droids I was looking for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCArcher View Post
    That's a very loose interpretation of the regs Ray. The regulations don't mention live terminals, they just say likely to be handled in normal use. They also say are insulated between the live parts and exposed metal for the full rated voltage of the circuit to which the appliance or equipment is connected;
    I don't know what the 110V motors are rated to but we are connecting them to a 240V circuit. An autotranny has no separation between primary and secondary and has the potential to apply full voltage to the output. Hence their restriction of use.
    That's my interpretation anyway. I still think it's way too much messing around when there are other options available.
    No, that's not a loose interpretation.. it's what the SAA regs say. and you are quoting fragments from two different clauses that should be read in context.
    I don't want to start an argument on this, as I think the discussion has already moved on, and there are better options on the table.

    Ray

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    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    No fireworks or explosions, autotransformers are perfectly safe for this application, there are no regulations against their use, except where you can contact live terminals in normal handling.
    Ray

    I agree the risk is low (we did it for ~40 years in our labs at work on many pieces of 100 - 120V equipment with only one minor incident) but there is always some risk, so saying it is "perfectly safe" may be misleading.

    The problem with a 240/120V autotransformer is that if they short internally the full 240V can appear on the output side, which in terms of current is equivalent to suddenly exposing a 240V device to 480V.
    The question that then arises is, can the device and insulation handle the resulting higher currents.

    If the 110V device when exposed to 240V draws a current more than the fuse on the input side of the transformer the transformer breaker will trip, so it becomes a limited problem. The danger comes when the current drawn (by the 110V device now at 240V) is less than the transformer tripping current permitting the transformer to continue to supply the current and the heat generated by the extra current can cause a meltdown/fire - this is what happened in our one incident at work. Luckily the damage was confined to the device itself but it could have been a lot worse.

    At work we had to demonstrate lowest possible risk because as it was explained to us meeting legal requirements is often not deemed sufficient by courts as meeting full duty of care.

    We had a lot of devices driven by Variacs, some with the added safety feature of a self tapping screw to limiting the V - they were definitely a no-no, and we got rid of these without question as there were always too many tools laying around and it was deemed too easy for someone to remove the screws.

    We also had a number of devices driven by fixed 100-120V autotransformers which we we very keen to keep and some devices even had fuses on their inputs which would have made them safe if exposed to 240V but they would not accept anything less than isolating transformers or replacement with 240V equivalents. The problem was compounded when we had the electrical safety inspectors around to look at the labs and as most of the stuff connected to the auto transformers was quite old (but still serviceable) it was described in their report as "the equipment is well beyond it's use by date and should be replaced". That would have been OK if the administration were prepared to stump up the money for its replacement but instead our research group had to find the funds ~$20k. I was off but I agreed because we had so many other OHS battles to fight that giving in on this one the least of out problems.

    Work places may be (slightly) different to DIY setups but I still think it is important that FF and others know what best practice and solutions are available.

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    Hi Bob,

    Your experience pretty much parallels mine, we would routinely use variac to control things like laboratory heaters, but always with a 1:1 isolating transformer ahead of the variac. A particularily nasty scenario is when you use a variac to power a low voltage circuit, that has exposed terminals and connections which would be handled in normal use.. ( which ordinarily would be safe). Then neutral and active is reversed.

    Such an arrangement is explicitly prohibited under SAA wiring rules. And this is the prohibition that is covered by clause 4.28.4.2 that was quoted by Chas in an earlier post.

    For what we are doing here with the router is covered by SAA clause 1.19.3 Which I quoted in full already. And as I keep re-iterating the use of an autotransformer is inherently no more dangerous than using a 3 pin power point.

    Bob's point about transformer failure potentially leading to the 120V router getting 240V is valid, and a good enough reason to get a router rated for 240V operation, but the risk is primarily the destruction of the router not the operator.

    Summarizing...

    1. The point Chas made about SAA prohibition against autotransformers is correct but not applicable in this case.
    2. Using an autotransformer costs an extra $175..
    3. Bob's point about potential transformer failure putting 240V into a 120V appliance is valid.. ( although the risk is low, the risk is more to the router, rather than a personal safety issue per se.)

    I vote for a 240V rated router.

    Finally... From safety perspective, I'd be more concerned about a razor sharp bit of carbide spinning at 20,000 rpm.

    Ray

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    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    Finally... From safety perspective, I'd be more concerned about a razor sharp bit of carbide spinning at 20,000 rpm.
    Yep there are many other risks that we seem to forget about when we get into woodworking.
    Probably the most dangerous thing we forget about regarding our hobby is drive to the hardware store.
    That gives me an idea for a poll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post

    I can't see that running a 110V double insulated applicance from an autotransformer is any different to running a double insulated applicance from the mains.

    The relevant clause in the SAA is 1.19.3 ( referenced from 4.28.4.4 )
    Which clarifies the matter as follows...

    The voltage within any applicance or equipment may be reduced by a device such as a resistor, inductor or autotransformer, and may be applied to external component parts of such an applicance or equipment provided that -

    a) all parts of the applicance or equipment, and all external component parts supplied therefrom, are insulated between the live parts and exposed metal for the full rated voltage of the circuit to which the applicance or equipment is connected; and

    b) each such component part is clearly and indelibly marked with the rated voltage of the applicance or equipment as a whole and with particulars of the relationship of that component to the main appliance or equipment.



    Ray
    This thread originated with a discussion about operating a 2000-2500W US sourced router motor mounted in a router lift and powered by an autotransformer.

    Ray's response appears reasonable as far as it goes, but are these US router motors, originally intended for fixed base routers, actually double insulated? I looked at internet specs and downloaded user manuals for the Porter Cable units in the power range, and found them rather obtuse in regard to insulation. Neither the web specs or manual for any of the units I checked would specify that the unit was double insulated.

    The manuals were ambiguous in stating that if the unit was fitted with a 3 pin plug it needed to be connected to an appropriate earthed socket, or if it was double insulated it would be fitted with a polarised plug (one terminal wider than the other) and if the plug would not fit into a socket, attempt to reverse it's orientation to connect and if that fails, contact an electrician and have a polarised socket installed. The manuals also include a warning not to make contact with earthed metal objects while operating the unit.

    These statements appear to be part of of the standard Porter Cable pro forma manual layout, so while they raise hope that there might be a double insulated unit available, they do not do anything to confirm absolutely whether the units are double insulated or not.

    Of course, there are other suppliers of fixed base router motors, I haven't checked them all, but a basic assumption that they would all be double insulated like plunge routers in Australia may be unsound.
    I used to be an engineer, I'm not an engineer any more, but on the really good days I can remember when I was.

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