Thread: Stepdown Transformers 240v to 110v for 2000w router motor

Weighing back in on the autotransformer issue.

The standards are very clear......you simpley can not use an auto transformer with an appliance...any appliance... a router is an appliance....no matter what you do to or with that appliance.

The exception paragraph in th standards is to allow the use of auto transformers within equipment, in general where the transformer and the item connected to it is enclosed within the housing of the equipment....not handled means not able to be touched in normal operation.

They do all sorts of things overseas...especially in the US that simply would not be entertained in Australia

I don't care how optomistic your reading of the standards are, the auto transformer is clearly illegal in this application.

As far as being safe....no they are not......people fail to understand that multiple failures occur.....most of the layers of electrical safety measures and the stereotypical examples account for multiple failures....as a working technician I can tell you a great many items that stop working have multiple failures....every time I do a test and tag session I find something that is not compliant or not safe.

Proper Australian legal isolating step down transformers are much larger, heavier and more expensive than autotransformers...making the whole exercise impratical in most cases.

Surely there is a 240V router available to do the job.
What are all the CNC routers using.

Do Porter Cable not make product for 240V markets any more.

cheers

Well I've just returned home after being out all day and evening. I'll go through the latest posts in more detail tomorrow, but in the mean time thanks to all the contributors.

If the Bosch GOF 1600 will fit then that is obviously the best choice, although a little more power would be good. It's an Aussie model, and locally available. A visual in person check will determine if it will work or not. I can also take some pics of it and send them to JessEm just to make sure.

However, in the mean time I think it's a good idea to thrash the issue out because it has implications for a great many people who may consider other 110v tools. For the same reason I believe it's a good idea to get the issue resolved, not just for my benefit, but for anyone else who may consider going down this router lift path.

Soundman - AFAIK Porter Cable used to put a 240v version of the motor into the Aussie (and I suppose British) market, but that stopped a few years (at least) ago.

Maybe it is time to resurrect my struck out question of whether or not a 110v motor can be legitimately rewound to 240v? If it can then I presume it would have to be inspected and tagged?

Ray, what I meant by the fireworks icon was "party time or a blown up idea" but looking at it now I see the ambiguity...

Paul, yes the lift being brought in by Gregory's does have a blank available, and so can be drilled for the Triton (or anything else that will fit). Without checking the facts (there's a fair bit going on upstairs atm ) there are some other reasons why that particular router lift would be second choice, but I'll have to go back over it. Most certainly it will yield a result, but there's a couple of naggers that I'm a bit too weary to remember properly right now.

no doubt a motor in theory could be rewound, but the cost would be prohibitive.

The issue of inspecting and testing is a non issue because that would be the responsibility of the rewinder.

It occurs to me that the router lift companies have not moved with the times...20 years ago there where quite a few largish routers with round bodies that fitted into their basses....but with plunge routers beeing the norm, large routers with round bodies are pretty well non existant.

By the time you have fiddled arround and gone to all this expense, you could have built a router lift to suit your router of choice from first principles.


As far as the whole 110 volt power tools in Australia......its been done to death in the past and it just is not viable unless the tool in question is very expensive, specialised and no alternative is available in 240V

There are a lot of things we pay way over the odds for in this country due to the "australia tax", but power tools we do pretty well on compared to the US and UK.

cheers

Originally Posted by soundman

no doubt a motor in theory could be rewound, but the cost would be prohibitive.

Rightio, it was just a thought to put out there. Scrub that one out.

Originally Posted by soundman

It occurs to me that the router lift companies have not moved with the times...20 years ago there where quite a few largish routers with round bodies that fitted into their basses....but with plunge routers beeing the norm, large routers with round bodies are pretty well non existant.

I think it's more a case of the router manufacturers not moving with international times. They produced the motor-only versions specifically for lift/table users living in the USA. Strip of the frills and you have a more affordable product with less clutter under the table. A great idea. Being as insular as they are (are they double insular? ) they haven't quite worked out that people outside the USA might like to use Lifts/Motors too. I suspect that there is quite a sizable market outside the 110v market.

Originally Posted by soundman

There are a lot of things we pay way over the odds for in this country due to the "australia tax", but power tools we do pretty well on compared to the US and UK. cheers

Yes, depending on the brand we often do better, which is a bit of a Paradox. I got a quote on the Bosch from Germany and it's actually more expensive (even without freight). Makita and Bosch seem to be very well behaved in this respect (as are Lie Nielsen).

You'd have to think that there are more fixed base routers on the market, beside the Bosch, so I have some research to do there. If nothing else turns up that has more than 1600W, and I can verify that the Bosch will fit without any issues (after removing the base), then that is the way I will go. I'll go to Sydney Tools for an inspection the week after next.

Originally Posted by soundman

no doubt a motor in theory could be rewound, but the cost would be prohibitive.

Soundman

That's my take on it too. Possible, but totally impractical. Rewinding motors only becomes economically feasible when you are in the large motor category and that's a lot larger than any domestic setup.

Regards
Paul

Just to take the autotransformer option off the table. The latest version of AS 3000:2007 has the following clause

autotransformers.jpg

Ray

I think it's more a case of the router manufacturers not moving with international times. They produced the motor-only versions specifically for lift/table users living in the USA. Strip of the frills and you have a more affordable product with less clutter under the table. A great idea. Being as insular as they are (are they double insular? ) they haven't quite worked out that people outside the USA might like to use Lifts/Motors too. I suspect that there is quite a sizable market outside the 110v market.



The router lift market would in fact be very small.

There are a whole pile of woodworking things that are pretty well perculear to the US and not considered a good idea in most other parts of the world.

Most of the round base routers would be hang over product from the pre plunge router days.......this explains why there are pretty well NONE, in the high power 3Hp pluss range.

Back in the day of fixed base, 2Hp was considered a big router.
The Hitachi TR12 was a revolution when it came out, big powerfull and plunge....we all went when we saw the advertising for the M12V and when we got our hands on them and the crop of 3hp machines that followed.

I am sort of surprised that there is not a product arround suited to the low end CNC market.

In the upper CNC market they either use indction motors straight off the end of the shaft for relativly slow RPM tools or an induction motor with a jack shaft that carries the tool for higher speeds.

Which brings us back to the spindle moulder option.

I owned a spindle moulder for a few years and for doing rebates and pushing large diameter tools, it makes anything router bassed look very weak....this thing would pull a 10mm x 20mm rebate out of a lump of pine in one pass clean & sharp and be looking for more...even my 3.5 Hp porter cable would be taking 2 or 3 passes to do that.

Mine had the facility to mount a 1/2 inch router collet in the shaft, but the shaft speed was way too low for small diameter tools at arround 10 000 rpm.

The tooling for a spindle moulder my be expensive...but for pushing large diameter profiles and removing a lot of material in one pass...there is simply no competition.

Back on the matter of the cost of tooling......in the complex profiles, there is no argument about the ongoing cost of tooling..though replacing the cutters is cheaper than replacing the whole head..........but in the straight profiles like rebating heads, the initail purchase price might be a sting.....but replacing the edges is very cheap.....a standard 50mm straight blade comes with two edges and can be had for arround $2-3.....the square scribe blades have 4 corners and 4 edges and can be had for arround $1-2 a piece...if you buy in the right place box or bag at a time......and the carbide is good

OH and remember at least half the spindle moulders can tilt the shaft..so that single straight rebating head will do rebates, edge trimming, chamfering (at various angles) and groving

Oh and a spindle moulder with an induction motor is a hell of a lot quieter than a router.

Just some thaughts

cheers

Basically, I'm visiting sites of all the router manufacturers to see what they have:

Brands where are result can't be found:
Mafell produce a 3½HP model, but it won't fit.

Kress produce Milling motors, but not of sufficient power, and they are also 43mm collar mounted (makes it's difficult to mount in a Router Lift)

Suhner I have already covered - (fairly good power, but collar mounted)
http://www.suhner-transmission-exper...50&vsprache=EN

Hilti don't appear to make Routers (Frasen, or Oberfrasen)

Fein don't appear to make routers any more, but there may be one for the USA market.

Hitachi make a similar unit to the Bosch GOF 1600, but I can't find a 240v version

Makita, Metabo, Milwaukee, Narex, AEG, have nothing suitable in 240v

Porter Cable left Australia before 2007



Brands that yield a potential result:
Bosch make a 2000w model, but it doesn't come apart like the GOF 1600

Felisatti have a similar option to the Bosch. This idea came from an exhaustive list of tools that Gerhard The Legend sent me a couple of years ago. About A$550




There is an Aussie company Multicam who make CNC router systems, so maybe they have some ideas on motors.


Can anyone think of any other potential brands of routers?

I may have missed it, but what was wrong with the aircooled spindle and VFD so commonly used on CNC routers as suggested by Bushmiler and myself?
I seem to remember a comment along the lines of "Chinese electronics". Lots of forum members use these Chinese VFDs, but one can buy more expensive European ones. As I look around most people's houses there appears to be a lot of "Chinese electronics" around.

Or, an even dumber question, what is wrong with the Triton TRA001 you already own.

Numerous forum members, including myself, use one of those in our router tables with great success.

Yes, this one. There's probably nothing wrong with it Fred, and it looks like a good option (takes ER20 collets for one thing. I imagine that the jaws on the lift will go down to 80mm, but will need to verify of course.

There are a couple of things that I don't understand about (but that's just me):
It says 1 or 3 phase input, so I presume it can be connected to either source, rather than specifying one when purchasing
Output 3 Phase so I presume the spindle motor is 3 Phase.
I can't see a spindle lock on there (for changing collets/bits) but it must surely have one.

I think it may have slipped down the list when the discussion about auto/isolated transformers got going. O'course, I know very little to nothing about such matters (although I know a bit more now and probably remembered it as a transformer rather than an inverter.

From eHow, a transformer changes AC voltages, and an inverter changes DC to AC.

The only other thing is that it's an extra box to deal with (just as any transformer would be) but in this case I'd have to make a spot for it very close to the motor because all the controls are on the inverter (rpm speed in particular).

So, yes it could be a good option. Price looks reasonable - free shipping too. I imagine that it probably doesn't have soft start, but that's not the end of the world either.

Originally Posted by Big Shed

I may have missed it, but what was wrong with the aircooled spindle and VFD so commonly used on CNC routers as suggested by Bushmiler and myself? .

I have thought about these spindles especially as I see ER20 collets are commonly used size. One thing I wonder about is how they would work upside down and belong air cooled which way they blow the air?
Anyone know about these?

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

The only other thing is that it's an extra box to deal with (just as any transformer would be) but in this case I'd have to make a spot for it very close to the motor because all the controls are on the inverter (rpm speed in particular).

The front panel where the pot for the speed control is can be mounted away from the box and connected via a cable.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

It says 1 or 3 phase input, so I presume it can be connected to either source, rather than specifying one when purchasing

Correct

Output 3 Phase so I presume the spindle motor is 3 Phase.

Correct

I can't see a spindle lock on there (for changing collets/bits) but it must surely have one.

This maybe spindle dependent.

From eHow, a transformer changes AC voltages, and an inverter changes DC to AC.

The VFDs we are referring to are much more than an inverter.
They take 3 or single phase with a fixed frequency as an input and convert it to DC which is then converted to 3 phase output with an operator determined or variable frequency.

The only other thing is that it's an extra box to deal with (just as any transformer would be) but in this case I'd have to make a spot for it very close to the motor because all the controls are on the inverter (rpm speed in particular).

Provided it has sufficient ventilation the VFD can be tucked right out of the away and a wired remote switch/speed and other controls can be (many metres away) conveniently located for the operator.

So, yes it could be a good option. Price looks reasonable - free shipping too. I imagine that it probably doesn't have soft start, but that's not the end of the world either.

The whole idea of a VFD is that they can be programed to have a start over pretty well any length of time so they all have soft start.

Originally Posted by BobL

I have thought about these spindles especially as I see ER20 collets are commonly used size. One thing I wonder about is how they would work upside down and belong air cooled which way they blow the air?
Anyone know about these?

Bob, they are also available as a water cooled unit.