Thread: VFD for 3 Phase Mini 30

Fair enough

Did Dave say anything about why its not covered by warranty?


Stuart

Said it could handle only so much shorting? Guess if I get any errors next time I will be testing motors before retrying to run.
Just waiting for Dave to reply to me. Found that SMS is a good way to get a response
Cheers
Graham

Well I am a bit disappointed since Dave wants to sell me his demo model, since he only has 2 new ones left on the shelf and reckons he is losing UK50. I told him I was not happy, but he said its only been run for 10 mins max. Still I would like a new unit. Showed him the Huanyang 240-240 model on ebay for $143 delivered, at
eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d
He said "No CE mark, so may not be that good but a great price".
I could go that route and save $360 but my spindle moulder motor won't run on that. I could replace that motor too for the saved $ but just have to do all the change over and sort the pulley. I am having a hard time making a decision as you can probably tell.
Graham

So it has short circuit protection but it only works 3 times......

I'm not exactly impressed he doesnt seem to have offered to try and fix it..... Though likely he can tell more from the picture and what you've said than I can. Also postage both ways will likely cost you the price of a Huanyang, add labor and some parts and it might be up to the price he wants for the replacement.
I would have thought(for what thats worth lol) if it's powering up with an error that means that most (or at least some) of the insides are still ok.

(On I side note I am now aware of three Huanyangs that have died).

"I could go that route and save $360 but my spindle moulder motor won't run on that."
Well it should run but at 60ish% power. So its something you could try.......and if 2ishhp turns out not to be enough you could then look into a replacement motor/rewind. I guess that depends how big a cutters you have in mind?

So as I'm see it, it currently stands like this.
You have one motor that you've chosen to replace/rewind no matter what, so that cost is fixed regardless of which option you choose.

Then you have three options for the moulder motor and VSD.

1. a new VSD from Dave. Full power on both motors.

2. a Huanyang leaving the moulder motor as is. 60ish% power on the moulder motor and full power on the new motor.(with the option to go to option 3 at a later date)

3. a Huanyang and two new motors/rewinds. Full power on both motors.

With reguard to replacement/rewind of the moulder motor I would think you will still need a 2/4 pole motor. I dont think one or the other would do.(changing pulley sizes might get you there if you had to)

Dont think I've missed anything.

Stuart

Thanks for putting everything in a nutshell for me Stuart. Just a couple of questions.

Originally Posted by Stustoys

Well it should run but at 60ish% power. So its something you could try.......and if 2ishhp turns out not to be enough you could then look into a replacement motor/rewind. I guess that depends how big a cutters you have in mind?

Wouldn't it draw more current at 240V. If so that might overload the VFD?

Originally Posted by Stustoys

With reguard to replacement/rewind of the moulder motor I would think you will still need a 2/4 pole motor. I dont think one or the other would do.(changing pulley sizes might get you there if you had to)

I presume you mean a 2 speed motor by 2/4 pole. Is there a problem with a single speed motor and VFD? I thought that was the idea of a VFD?

Original speeds are 1440 and 2880. If a single speed is OK, is it best to go 4 pole (1400 rpm) and ramp it up to 2800 for high speed, or a 2 pole (2800rpm) and slow it to 25Hz (1400 rpm)? But in any case it sounds like you are saying single speed won't do?

Graham

Originally Posted by gorriss

Wouldn't it draw more current at 240V. If so that might overload the VFD?

Short answer is no. Long answer.... well I wouldnt fully understand the long answer but there is a thread around here somewhere that goes into it a little, I will try and dig it up.
It would of course have to draw more current if it was going to make the motors rated Hp......but its not going to make rated Hp. When I have done this, the VSD has been equal to or above the rated Hp of the motor.

It is believed to be possible to size the VSD to the reduced Hp but thats yet to be tried by anyone I know of, though I did bring the idea up in a thread about running 5hp 415V motors on a 3hp 240V VSD(which solves the supply current issues). Not really an issue at 3hp as the 2hp VSDs arent much cheaper.

Clear as mud?

Originally Posted by gorriss

I presume you mean a 2 speed motor by 2/4 pole. Is there a problem with a single speed motor and VFD? I thought that was the idea of a VFD?

Original speeds are 1440 and 2880. If a single speed is OK, is it best to go 4 pole (1400 rpm) and ramp it up to 2800 for high speed, or a 2 pole (2800rpm) and slow it to 25Hz (1400 rpm)? But in any case it sounds like you are saying single speed won't do?

Yes 2 speed motor.

The problen is the speed range you are going to want if you use a single speed motor.
If you use a 4 pole motor and run it up to 100Hz(2800rpm) you likely wont have much power.
If you use a 2 pole motor and run it at 25Hz(1400rpm) you wont have a lot of power.
It depends on the motor just how much power it will have.(one of the forum members tested some of his motors and they wouldnt run faster than about 110Hz if I recall correctly, so to me that means 0hp at 110Hz).

2800rpm I assume is for small dia cutters....... how much power would you need? I have no idea. So I'd think if you had to choose one, 4 pole and over speed it, at least then you would have full power for the larger cutters

Now you could change the pulleys so the motor appears to the machine to be running at 2100rpm with the VSD at 50Hz. Then you only need to go to 65Hz to appear to be doing 2800rpm and 35Hz to appear to be doing 1400rpm.

Stuart

It sounds like a 2 speed motor is what I need.

It seems that the 2 speed motor I have is by spec an expensive motor. I rang the guy I bought the machine off to quiz him about it. That particular motor was rewound 5 or 6 years ago because the cost of replacing it was a lot I believe. For this reason I am probably best sticking with the 240-415 VFD (as was my intent all along). I should have 2 good motors and hopefully no more issues. I will contact Dave again tonight and beg for a new VFD (not demo model) but most likely I will end up with the demo! Presumably I will still have a new warranty (although it doesn't seem to be worth much does it!)
Graham

I really dont understand the Demo thing from his point of view. But people are strange some times...... or maybe thats me lol

Think of it as "thoroughly tested"

Dont go throwing the old one out!

Stuart

A little light reading that doesnt apply any more about 240V VSDs on 415V motors, but maybe someone else will be following along one day looking for the links I mentioned above.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/some-vsd-questions-150614/

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/si...fusion-150578/

I pleaded my case with Dave for a new unit and he agreed. All ordered, so just have to find a new motor now. Waiting on a few quotes to get back to me for that. Do you know much about motor brands. Teco have a terminal box that is too large to fit. WEG and Baldor are a couple I have come across as well as RCG (Royce Cross own brand).
Cheers
Graham

Hi all. New motor is installed, "New" VFD arriving this afternoon. I had a question that I emailed Dave last night, but had no reply, so I will post it here in case any one else can help.

PS. Last time he told me to set F_05 to 4 which is 60Hz. Our power supply is 50Hz so I thought it should be set to 1?

I got a new motor and I just wanted to check the specs with you. It is a 2.2 Kw 240/415 three phase WEG motor (W22 Premium E3). The info plate shows 2.2Kw at 50Hz 415 volts which is what I will be running (240-415 VFD 2.2Kw). The confusing part is that it also says that at 440 or 460 volts @ 60Hz it is 2.6Kw. I presume this will be fine with your VFD ? I have attached a photo of the motor spec plate for you to see. Does this have any bearing on the setting for F_05 - Should I set it to 1 (50Hz) or 4 (60Hz)? My power supply is 240V 50Hz.

Obviously I have the motor wired in star mode for 415 volts.

PS. Also not sure why the plate doesn't show 240 next to 415 for the delta/star options, since I was told it can run at 240V in delta mode?
WEG Motor Plate.jpg

Cheers
Graham

My VSD was set to F_05=5. I asked him about this also, he said 4 or 5 were fine, 5 if you use the VSD for speed control. I dont think he got that we are 50hz. I've certainly run with it on 5. I've just been out to check and its now set on 1.

Its just the V v Hz map, so (I think) it will just mean you are a little down on power as you wont get full V until 60Hz(but then the VSD also knows its a 50Hz motor so I'm not really sure what happens).

I'd think F_05=2 would give you more power all he way up the rev range.(until 50hz that is).

Stuart

Hi Stuart

Well she's all up and running at last. Got F_05 on 1 at the moment. I would assume it would be full power at 50Hz. Set up the remote rev/off/fwd and speed control switch. All working as it should. I locked out the reverse function with F_22 since I was a bit worried what would happen if you turned the switch too far when turning it off and hit reverse?

Cheers
Graham

Originally Posted by gorriss

what would happen if you turned the switch too far when turning it off and hit reverse?

Graham

Hi Graham,
Yeah the reply was a little slow, I started the reply about 2pm, one thing after stopped it happening lol

As far as reversing go, it depends. If you have F_14=0 (controlled deceleration stop)then you can do what you like and the VSD just ramps down and then ramps up in the other direction. If you have F-14=1(free run stop) then you are on your own as I havent tried it.

I asked "Can the inverter be switched from FWD to REV without stopping first?(i.e. will it decelerate-stop-accelerate?)Can this also be done in "free run to stop" mode?"
He answered "You can switch form FWD to REV on the fly without a problem, "

Do you need REV anyway?

Stuart

All good. I don't need reverse so I have locked it out anyway. I have free run stop as I see no point in using power to stop it.

I presume if I hit reverse, nothing will happen now.

Graham