Thread: VFD install summaries

I'd be interested to know the model number of the PT Minis as I can't find a "mini" on the Powtran Website.

I don't remember Powtran prices always being that comparable. When I first looked at VFD prices in 2011/12, 1.5HP HYs were a $115 while a comparably powered Powtran (albeit with more features) was more than double this. Choice of VFD also can depend on what sort of machine is being powered and machine usage. For example using a $400 VFD on a ClearVue is appropriate use on a $3500+ machine that is going to be run for long periods on full load. However, when fitting a VFD to an old 3P ventilator I got out of a skip and only use on average on low speed for about an hour week I went for a used VFD purchased off eBay for $75.

One reason HYs have become popular with forum members is probably because of the experience base of members on the forums, with members like Joe Hovel and others who were amongst the first on the forums to become proficient in HY programming. The sheer size of some of the manuals and the programming aspect of using some of the VFDs (especially the vector control side) is non-trivial and moving to a new VFD represents a significant barrier to some folks. The HYs have also proved to be very reliable - I've have 21 years worth of cumulative HY ownership without any problems. However, with price differentials now down to 30% the PTs are very good value for the few extra $ involved.

My apologies for the comments I have just removed as they were uncalled for and unwanted by Bob.

PI130 economical vector frequency converter,Products,POWTRAN, VECTOR CONTROL INVERTER,AC DRIVES,SOFT STARTER,SERVO ,DALIAN Powtran technology co.,ltd.

Thanks for the lead on the Mini's.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

I suppose it is up to you Bob if you want to buy junk or quality with factory back up and no hassles because the manuals aren't rubbish.

I admit every now and then I get tempted, but I don't feel a great need to own and cannot currently justify to myself owning a workshop full of high quality machinery. A walk though my workshop will see that most of my machinery is indeed low end machinery and has either been picked up for free, or out of a skip, or is Sherwood, Carbatech etc level stuff bought on special. And FWIW I have a few Ozito and Ryobi power tools as well. Putting a $400 VFD onto a machine that came out of a skip and that might die in the next few years seems a bit incongruous to me. I realise not all DIYers are like this and when folks ask me about VFDs I try to ascertain where they are coming from. If they were talking about adding a VFD to a Felder or Clearvue I don't recall ever recommending using a HY. If they picked up a WW lathe from a garage sale for $100 and wanted to add a VFD to that then I would suggest an HY , and now I will point them to a mini.

I think Bob makes a good point - if you're feeling your way into the world of VFDs, the HY is a good choice simply because of the level of support you'll get from a whole bunch of forums. It may be technically inferior to, say, the Powertran, but if you're just starting out, not quite as good is not the most important thing - getting it working properly is. I use Danfoss and ABB drives for non-messing-around applications, and while the documentation is extensive and generally excellent, there's not so many forums I can jump onto and get answers like you can with the HY.

That said, ABB have really good support engineers.

Originally Posted by RustyArc

That said, ABB have really good support engineers.

ABB certainly produce some quality gear. We use the Allen Bradley Powerflex 4 & 4M purely for support and quality on our jobs. Firmly believe you get what you pay for with this type of equipment like most things but as Bob said, for home use it needs to be relative to the equipment it's being attached to.

I got some more prices on VFDs from Powtran.

The Mini or Budget / entry level 240V VFDs (PI160 models) with vector control
2.2kW with no e-brake circuitry are US$85 (Model Number PI160 2R2G1)
1.5kW with no e-brake circuitry are US$73 (Model No, PI160 1R5G1

The braking circuitry adds ~$5 onto the price (braked model numbers have a Z added to the end of them)
Brake resistors cost US$7

Shipping adds a further US$40 but you should get it within a week - my last order took 3days!

These Entry level 240V VFDs only go up to 2.2kW above that you have to go to more pro units.

Even including the shipping these prices are cheaper than comparable HY models which don't have vector control.

The mini VFD's are a really interesting product that would suit drill presses, grinders etc and are very compact in size but not features.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Chris.
For most of us running pretty basic gear as you say drill presses, grinders etc the only thing we'd want is to be able to run a 3 Phase machine on single phase 240v.
For others that may want something like a 3 Phase metal lathe running on single phase the more features the VFD's have then the better they can fine tune their machines to perform exactly how they want.
Great thread.

Stewie

As far as basic VFDs go the PI160 series or "minis" appears to be a significant step up from a "basic" VFD.

They all have sensorless vector control and the "Z" versions have built in braking circuitry.
The vector control makes a big difference as it doubles the effective speed range which makes a big difference on machines like drill presses and wood working lathes.
A standard V/F controlled (as opposed to vector control) motor has a nominal effective speed range of about 5:1.
A Vector drive effectively doubles this to 10:1.
If the motor power is doubled then this makes it up to 20:1 and this will make belt changing a rare event.

The only limitation I can see so far with the "mini" is they max out at 300Hz which limits them for CNC use but for all other WW machines then 120 Hz or maybe 150 Hx if you are game

Originally Posted by RustyArc

I think Bob makes a good point - if you're feeling your way into the world of VFDs, the HY is a good choice simply because of the level of support you'll get from a whole bunch of forums. It may be technically inferior to, say, the Powertran, but if you're just starting out, not quite as good is not the most important thing - getting it working properly is. I use Danfoss and ABB drives for non-messing-around applications, and while the documentation is extensive and generally excellent, there's not so many forums I can jump onto and get answers like you can with the HY.

That said, ABB have really good support engineers.

I look at it this way, if I am just starting out I want to be able to email the manufacturer and get an answer to a problem not depend on well meaning mates on a forum. When we first started using Powtran I wrote an email asking a question and five minutes later the phone rang with the answer from an engineer. That was unusual because they were trying to (I suspect) impress me because they knew I was going to be a continuing customer which proved correct as apart from the very early cyclones they have all had Powtran VFD's so the testing has already been done in Oz.

Hoping for some advice, tearing my hair out right now.

I bought a 5HP 3-phase cabinet saw a little over a month ago and had the intention to replace the motor with a single phase 3HP unit, thought this wouldn't be too tough as they originally offered the saw with both motors available. I thought I'd found the perfect thing in a CMG 3.2HP motor from Hare and Forbes but after picking it up today I realised it's actually a drip proof model that was incorrectly advertised on their site as TEFC. Shame because that was the only one I could find that fit the mounting location and from what I've read TEFC motors are pretty much a requirement for cabinet saws.

So now I'm wondering if I should think about running the original 5HP on a VFD and de-rating it to 3HP but I'm not entirely certain if this will work at the correct RPM's or have enough torque. There are definitely 5HP single phase in - 3 phase out VFD's available but I'm hesitant to go out and purchase one without knowing what I'm getting myself in for. I've converted my jointer with a VFD previously but that was simple, it was only a 2HP motor so I bought a 2HP VFD and away I went. Didn't have to worry about exceeding the power source available to me.

I can find other 3HP 240v TEFC motors on Ebay or from Hare and Forbes but they'd all require some sort of modification to either the mounting feet or the mount in the saw and I'm not really equipped to do that sort of thing. So my options aren't looking great right now. I can run the drip proof motor and have it fill up with dust, possibly go for a VFD and the original motor or attempt the mods required to fit a more common 3HP motor to the saw. Thoughts?

Originally Posted by bueller

Hoping for some advice, tearing my hair out right now.

I bought a 5HP 3-phase cabinet saw a little over a month ago . . . .

First thing is to check the motor connection.

Most 3P 415V 5HP motors for Table saws are ∆ connected and some are hard wired as Delta.

If it's the latter this it they cannot be run from a 240V VFD (well they will run but they will only generate half their rated HP) because the 415V motor has to be Y connected and then converted back to ∆ to generate full power on 240V.
This is often near impossible to do or not worth doing.

If it is a Y convertible to ∆, I have an unmounted 5HP VFD you can try it out on.

Cheers Bob, always a fountain of knowledge. Here’s what we’re dealing with, looks like 3 wires out of the motor.

E4CDDBAB-B666-4FDA-B2AD-6C6254944B4B.jpg

Can't tell from that photo.

What does it say on the motor name plate?

Also look under the connection box cover.

Unfortunately nothing helpful from the looks of things, no mention of the wiring on the plate or anywhere on the connection box cover.

106604CB-E46D-4F9E-9516-153FE0272480.jpgC89822FA-9D23-4862-9C7F-35DF2F8B2198.jpg