Thread: My new 350mm tenon saw

I'm sorry Ian those horns are just too long, thin and decorative for you………So i'll hide it in my shed out of sight and you can make a proper one

Nice work Ian, I agree pretty much with the logic of having longer saws for some jobs, you seem to get a better rhythm with a slightly longer stroke on some cuts.

Did you change the hang angle for the longer blade?

Ray

Hi Ian,

Great work. Like you I think the thin plates are fine for stability. I wonder if the reason that older saws generally have thicker plates can be attributed to the materials and technology available at the time that they were manufactured,

Cheers,
Rob

As far as having too many saws I wonder if it's possible, they don't eat much.

Originally Posted by RayG

.......Did you change the hang angle for the longer blade?

You have a sharp eye, Ray! Yes, I made it slightly more vertical, but it's only a couple of degrees. I also made the grip a bit more fulsome, and made the bottom a little wider, which makes it hard to compare unless you lay one over the other. Then you can see the difference easily, but it's less than you might expect from looking at the pics. The original Walnut handle is a pretty straight copy from an old saw, with maybe a bit more shaping of the grip than the original. It's a nice handle to use, but I thought it could be improved just a wee bit. After making more saw handles than I can count, I'm still mucking about with these subtle changes to grips, looking for that 'perfect' shape! The rest of a handle is easy, & as long as it gives you enough room to adjust the fit a little to get the grip in the right position for comfortable use, you can shape it & decorate it as the muse strikes..

Not sure I have this handle just right, yet. I put it on the blade after roughing it out & cutting the slot, held it in a normal sawing position, and adjusted it a few times 'til it felt right. To keep the handle as close to the thrust-line as possible, but maintain a grip angle that keeps my wrist around the 'neutral' point during sawing, was a juggle, and I may have compromised the hang angle slightly for best thrust-line (it may be too vertical). This is a bigger, heavier saw than I am accustomed to using, so I opted for good power transmission above all else. My hope is it will make it more comfortable to use & reduce that 'big saw' feeling. Only a few hours of steady use will tell me for sure, so I'll report back after the next big project.

Cheers,

Hey ian if someone was wanting to get into saw making what sort of steel do they ask for? For both the 25 thou plate and 3/4 x 1/4 spines? And the bolts where can you get these? I have a few from old saws but wouldnt know where to buy new ones from. Lee valley?

Cheers
Nathan

Originally Posted by rob streeper

....Like you I think the thin plates are fine for stability. I wonder if the reason that older saws generally have thicker plates can be attributed to the materials and technology available at the time that they were manufactured....

Hi Rob - thanks. Yes, it may have been just a manufacturing compromise - you didn't want to have to have too many different plate thicknesses to make or buy in. I have also suggested that saws made for the general hoi poloi probably needed to be fairly robust. The 'gentlemen' customers of today would be likely to treat their saws with a bit of respect, so we can get away with thinner plates.

In my haste to get this saw finished, I forgot a crucial step - I didn't retension the blade to get rid of the very slight curve to the blade from being coiled. No excuses for it, I just forgot, but remembered as soon as I sighted down the blade and saw the slight curve. It seems to make little difference, the saw cut straight & true, but it's gotta go!

Originally Posted by rob streeper

... As far as having too many saws I wonder if it's possible, they don't eat much...

Not too sure about that, Rob. Round here they eat a lot of oxygen, which doesn't do their nice little polished bodies any good at all! The only thing that keeps it at bay is regular exercise...

Cheers,

Hi Ian,

You can get rid of that coil curve on fresh plates by grinding away the cut edges without making the plate hot. Follow that by sanding the plate with a power sander of your choice until you have the plate nice and warm - almost too warm to be pleasant. You'll find that the plates flatten out nicely after temperature cycling assuming of course that the steel was not coiled so tightly as to be bent.

Cheers,
Rob

Hi Ian. With the greatest respect.

I have seen many examples of your earlier saw making work where you have applied a greater focus into getting all those small but very important details spot on.

Your new 350mm backsaw. The hang of the handle is way too low; the spine is sitting too high within the mortise; the seating depth of the saw bolts are all over the place; and the curvature you have added to the toe end of the saw plate does not match in with the underside of the handle.

You have already proved you can do much better than what I am currently seeing within this new backsaw.

regards; Stewie.

Hi Stewie,

I've looked at the design, hang angle and plate depth I can see merit in Ian's saw. The plate is 100 mm deep and the saw is relatively long and is set up for ripping, i.e. a fairly aggressive rake. Considering what Ian has written and what I can see from the picture I think the saw may work well just as Ian says it does.
If x is the long axis of the saw and y is perpendicular from the top to the bottom of the plate I can see that as the saw is pushed into the cut the force applied in the x axis becomes larger as the saw moves from toe to heel because the angle between the force centroid (made that up all on my own) of the pushing hand and the work approaches 90^o. One way to modulate the change in the effective rake angle is to increase the rake from say 8^o at the toe to something like 15^o at the heel. Another way would be to set the handle such as to decrease the effective rake angle of the teeth by pushing up on the handle at the end of the stroke, which is what Ian has apparently done.

Cheers,
Rob

Well, I don't think I could have provided such a neat analysis of the mechanics as you have, Rob, but you've encapsulated the ideas behind my saw pretty well spot-on. The handle geometry of this saw is set to my own preference for heavy work with the work up fairly high off the bench, as it usually is when ripping tenon cheeks or the sort of work this saw will be put to. In that position, my wrist is in the 'neutral' position, allowing me to twist it up or down a bit to finish a cut, or correct to a line if the cut is going off a bit. I have a fair idea of where I want a grip to be on a saw now, but I usually still test the 'fit' before drilling the plate so I can vary it by a few degees if required. Indeed, the grip angle is way too vertical for use as you would a carcase saw, but it's not intended for that. This is a saw made to do a very specific job. If it were more general purpose, I would have lifted the the grip angle for sure.

Your criticisms re aesthetics are noted, Stewie. You are absolutely right, the bottom bolt wasn't sitting flush - I was in a hurry to get it assembled & take a pic before I had to come inside, so I didn't get it quite right. I fixed that first thing this morning! The rest of it, well, I'm sure it could be improved by a keener eye, but I have to tell you, that Tulip Oak is a beast of a wood to work with, and it didn't go exactly as I envisioned it in my mind's eye when I started. However, this is essentially a workhorse and not a show pony, so I'll live with its looks as long as it does the job as well as I hope....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by rob streeper

Hi Ian,

You can get rid of that coil curve on fresh plates by grinding away the cut edges without making the plate hot. Follow that by sanding the plate with a power sander of your choice until you have the plate nice and warm - almost too warm to be pleasant. You'll find that the plates flatten out nicely after temperature cycling assuming of course that the steel was not coiled so tightly as to be bent.

Cheers,
Rob

Thanks for that info, Rob. I always file off the cut edges, because I find they are nearly always work-hardened for a thou or three, which makes the file skate when marking out teeth, and doesn't do a lot for accuracy! There was only the tiniest bit of curve in the plate, which the spine would take out easily. if it weren't so wide. Anyway, I'm trying to teach myself hammering, so I don't mind playing about adding a bit of tension.....

PS, it took just a small amount of hammering to fix the problem...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by delbs

Hey ian if someone was wanting to get into saw making what sort of steel do they ask for? For both the 25 thou plate and 3/4 x 1/4 spines? And the bolts where can you get these? I have a few from old saws but wouldnt know where to buy new ones from. Lee valley?

Cheers
Nathan

Hi Nathan - sorry, I had to scoot this morning & didn't have time to answer your question.

Getting the supplies is the crucial step for someone who just wants to make a saw or two. The steel needed is fairly specific - 1095 spring steel or something very close is generally what's used. You can buy it in small sheets from a couple of suppliers in the US, but freight is a killer & makes the price ridiculous if you only want a couple of saw's worth! Brass is easy enough to get - there are plenty of suppliers in Aus willing to sell small lots, but you will have to slot it. That means investing in a slotting saw & arbor & making a jig for your drill press or something. Bolts can be bought for a reasonable price, or you can make your own by various means - here's one way to go about it, and there are others. You can see why folks who get at all serious about saw making don't stop at one or two - you have to justify all that investment!

I think the best way to get into saw making is to buy a kit - it will have everything you need bar the wood. The only commercial suppliers are all offshore, unfortunately, & with the slump of our $, they aren't quite as attractive as they were 6 months ago. If you are serious about making a saw, PM me - I have a bit of spare stuff atm, & I may be able to set you up with what you want for a very reasonable cost.

Cheers,