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Thread: Saw blade blanks
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9th August 2013, 09:30 AM #61
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9th August 2013 09:30 AM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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9th August 2013, 12:28 PM #62
If interested, i had a response from Dawborn Steel
I did make an error in transcription - the sheet they have is 1080 not 1085.
- Not ideal but still Ok and local
Book prices are:
SAE 1080 Spring steel sheet (Hardened & tempered)
0.40mm x 300mm x 1000mm @ $95.00ea + GST
0.64mm x 350mm x 1000mm @ $150.00ea + GST
0.40mm = 0.015" and 0.64mm = 0.025"Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can? -- Sun Tzu
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9th August 2013, 03:22 PM #63Senior Member
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14th August 2013, 05:54 PM #64SENIOR MEMBER
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Local source of steel
1) Ian reports difficulty in finding the large scraper blades at Bunnings. I popped into one yesterday on chance going past, and found some stock of one type of blade - 14" long, 4.75" wide and 1mm (0.032") thick. The staff informed me they are a deleted line, and could not find a price on the system, or, after ringing around, anywhere. In the end they sold them to me for $4.90 ea, which did not seem too bad (the complete tool costs $49.95). I am sure I will be able to use the steel for a number of purposes. I don't know what the range used to be, but worth dropping in if this is something you are looking for - they may be glad to get rid of any remaining stock for loose change.
2) At last night's TTTG meeting, Corin Urquhart, GM of Gameco in Sydney (largest gas fittings company in Oz) talked about tool steel. He is a keen knife maker, and frustrated with poor steel supply in Oz, and lack of knife making (blacksmithing) tools, Gameco now imports a range of steels and tools from Germany, Sweden and US - using spare space in containers to get it here. Corin is prepared to source all sorts of steel if there is a demand, and briefly responding to a question from Brad (Virgil on here), indicated that he could source 1095 saw plate. Worth following up Australian Knifemaking Blacksmithing Materials and Tools | GAMECO. Corin (corinkayaker) has some Utube videos if you wish to see his work, and building a forge out of a 9kg gas bottle (empty).
Brad also picked up a couple of saws with potential for $2 at the auction. See, you should have been there.
Cheers
Peter
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14th August 2013, 07:38 PM #65
I was at Ray's yesterday and he had a Bunnings scraper blade and a pieces of 1095 saw plate and as an exercise we used a HSS Drill, Solid carbide drill and a hole punch on the two plates and the bunnings scraper was noticeably softer steel. Just FYI
…..Live a Quiet Life & Work with your Hands
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14th August 2013, 10:03 PM #66
I'm rather surprised by that, Dale. My impression formed by drilling & filing them is that the Bunnies scrapers are about as tough as the 1095. Judging by the way they respond to filing, I would have said both are a bit tougher than the "Swedish steel" sawplate from the group buy (don't know what alloy that is). You can wreck a HSS drill in one or two holes on any of the Bunnies scraper blades I've used (I've done it! ). BobL measured the hardness of a couple of scraper blades at around 53 Rockwell, which is at the upper end of the range recommended for saws (48-54), and I reckon every one I've laid into would be up at the top of the range. Of course, there could be variation between batches, & your samples could have been very different from those I've used, so I would not lay any bets..
The problem with all carbon steels is that the alloy is only one part of the equation, the post-hardening tempering process is the critical step, it appears, and particularly with hyper-saturated steels like 1095. I have been doing some reading to see what the difference is between 1095 and the lower carbon steels like 1080. According to what I read, 1095 can be a bit difficult to temper, while 1080 is more 'forgiving', meaning you are less likely to end up too soft or too brittle if things aren't done perfectly. You only derive the full benefits of the higher carbon in 1095 if the tempering temperatures & rate of cooling are spot-on, otherwise it will be too brittle, or too soft. It made me wonder why slightly lower-carbon steels like 1080 aren't a better alternative, if they can be relied on to finish to a narrower range of tolerances. But I really don't know enough, or should I say I really don't know anything, about metallurgy. The main difference between the two steels, apart from a fraction of a % of carbon, is that 1080 contains almost twice as much manganese. When you try to find out exactly what effect that proportion of manganese has on steel properties, you get a range of answers, partly because that depends on other factors, so I ended up more confused than enlightened. I should hang around on the metalwork part of the Forum - maybe there are folks that can answer my questions over there.....
In any case, it's all moot, because it seems Bunnies are out of the scraper business - Peter's experience in Sydney parallels mine in Brisbane. That chapter is closed. If we can get small quantities on a regular basis from the place Peter mentions, it will be a boon for me, because I don't want to have to buy in 50 foot rolls, I just can't (& don't want to!) use enough to justify having 3 or 4 rolls of it on the go, which I would have to do to have all of the gauges I require.
Cheers,IW
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14th August 2013, 10:19 PM #67
It wasn't the group buy saw plate it was from another source that Ray mentioned I think earlier in this thread.
The saw plate cut cleanly where the scrapers drilled holes burred and were out of round. Also note the scrapes were dirlled first with brand new drills and the saw plate second.
The group buy saw plate we only punched and that was quite successful.…..Live a Quiet Life & Work with your Hands
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14th August 2013, 10:34 PM #68
Hi Ian,
I don't think it matters too much, the 1095 spring steel from victor net is supposed to be 48-51 Rc, and that seems to work pretty well, I haven't check the bunnings scraper on the hardness tester, but I don't think it matters too much, there is a vast range of hardness in saw plate as used on vintage saws.
There might be some advantage in durability having harder steel plate, but the downside of harder plate is that it's going to be harder to file. ( and use more valuable files in the process )
The solid carbide drill was a bit dissapointing, the edge chipped after just one hole... maybe a bit more care needed on fixing and drill speed selection is needed. I've ordered up some 5/32 solid carbide drills, different brand to try.
And on a slightly different topic, I see lie-nielsen are selling saw nuts and bolts for $5 Lie-Nielsen Toolworks USA | Dovetail Saw I've got some ordered to see what they are like, but I'd guess they are the same as the ones they use in their saw production.
Regards
Ray
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14th August 2013, 11:38 PM #69SENIOR MEMBER
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Ian, how many varieties of scraper blades were stocked by Bunnings? I wonder who sells them now (sounds like a hit song)?
Ray, where does one get imperial solid carbide bits? At what price? Are the cobalt drills any good?
Thanks
Peter
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15th August 2013, 12:32 AM #70
Hi Peter,
I got some 3/16 solid carbide off ebay, and first impressions aren't that good, the cutting edge chipped on the first hole, but that might have been caused by poor technique?... I can touch them up on a diamond wheel, so I'm not that fussed... just need to work with them a bit more to see if I'm doing something wrong.
In any event, the saw nuts and bolts I was using weren't 3/16 diam, they are 5/32 diam, so I've gone for some of these Metalworking Tools - Drills, End Mills, Taps, Machines, Measuring Tools, Abrasives, Power Tools and MRO Supplies | Travers Tool to see how they go. $10.80 is probably a fair price I think. Freight isn't a huge issue, since I'm buying other stuff in the same order that defrays some of the cost.
Regards
Ray
PS... Sorry I forgot to comment on the cobalt question, yes no problem drilling saw plate with cobalt HSS, and a drop of rocol cutting fluid but regular sharpening might be required.
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15th August 2013, 09:44 AM #71
Peter, up my way, they had two types of 350mm blade when BobL first brought them to our attention. One was a bit thinner (~0.65mm) and the other was 0.8mm thick. As Bob mentioned in his original post, the thinner blades were invariably curved, as if they'd been cut from a tightly coiled roll. I got a couple of those and with some hammering they straightened out fairly easily. I used one for a 300 x 80mm tenon saw blade and it turned out well; it's one of my regular 'users'. The thin blades disappeared shortly after I bought mine, & only the thicker variety remained for a few years. Now they have gone, apparently forever (though I noticed you could still buy the scraper itself, with its one lonely blade, until a few weeks ago-). While 0.8mm plate is really a bit thick for medium-sized backsaws, it is useful for some applications, so I'm sorry to lose that convenient source....
Blackwoods have solid carbide bits in both metric & Imperial. Their Imperial range is not very extensive.
Cheers,IW
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15th August 2013, 10:12 AM #72
Ray, yes, I think we discussed this before. In fact I haven't found any noticeable difference in the durability of what seems like 'hard' plate vs. what seems like 'softer'. I used the quotes because I can only go by my impressions of which seemed harder to file and/or drill through, and the two properties don't always coincide, it seems to me. The only steel we are sure of is the 1095 - I have no idea what's in several of the steels I've used over the last few years. I think the hardest stuff I've struck has been in a Disston backsaw I tidied up for a friend - it was like filing files! I've got a couple of saws that file very nicely, so easily, I thought the steel must have been over-tempered, but they seem to last as long as any other saw between sharpenings. There must be a difference, but I think it would need very careful testing to show it up. As soon as a saw feels a bit dull, I touch it up, but I don't keep track of them, & couldn't say if any last longer between sharpenings. I guess they all last long enough!
I found when drilling saw plate with carbide drills that a slow-medium speed & dry-cutting worked best for me. If I use cutting compound, the things I use crack up in no time, but used dry, they drill hole after hole, no probs. It seems counter-intuitive to me, but it works.
Cheers,IW
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15th August 2013, 11:17 AM #73Member
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Which type of drill bit are you using? I use solid carbide spade drill bits (picture below) on a medium speed and run them dry. They eat thru spring steel with no problems at all. They last almost indefinitely as long as you don't shock them (usually from pushing them too hard/fast or if the blade moves around on you in the middle of drilling). The geometry makes them extremely easy to touch up or regrind if you have a green or diamond wheel.
solid-carbide-spade-bit.jpg
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15th August 2013, 04:34 PM #74SENIOR MEMBER
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That looks the go! Could not find these locally, but Enco seems the cheapest in US Buy Hertel Solid Carbide Half-Round & Spade Drill Bits from UseEnco, about US$10 for 5/32", navigating the site is painful. McMaster-Carr McMaster-Carr about US$5 dearer (but may be a better bit, unbranded). Always helpful, there is Amazon Chicago Latrobe 780 High-Speed Steel Solid Carbide Spade Drill Bit, Uncoated (Bright) Finish, Round Shank, 118 Degree Conventional Point: Amazon.com: Power & Hand Tools
Of course, there is postage... Amazon looks like - US$8 +US$4 per lb. Enco use UPS in US, if they insist on doing that internationally - then that is out; I have emailed them asking about overseas shipping.
Cheers
Peter
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15th August 2013, 06:24 PM #75
Peter,
Where are you getting your bolts? The shank size seems to vary slightly so you will want to match drill to the bolts unless you make your own.
Issac above your post, makes saw bolts by the way and it you get a batch of bolts from him he could probably ship a carbide drill bit over with them and you know they would match..…..Live a Quiet Life & Work with your Hands
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