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  1. #151
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    Two to go: The littlest


    The baby. 9 7/32" dovetail with 20ppi (new sawplate). Handle is the unknown hardwood we cut down at the side of the house. It just reminds me of apple in it's appearance. I really hate little teeth, but I persevered.

    P1040475 (Medium).JPGP1040495 (Medium).JPGP1040507 (Medium).JPG

    And the biggest being the 5ppi rip saw. This was my old Warranted Superior 28" saw that I cut down a little. Gidgee handle and quite a bit of colour when caught at the right angle.

    P1040481 (Medium).JPGP1040485 (Medium).JPGP1040482 (Medium).JPGP1040501 (Medium).JPG

    Just a few comments. I have to adjust most of the saw screws and as yet I have not filed any flush. I am hesitating with that as I don't see how I can do that without damaging the timber finish. The backs still have to be crimped up and I have not done that yet as I have to find some aluminium protectors for my engineers vice otherwise there will be irreparable damage to the brass backs which tend to mark if you look at them hard . I think I am starting to realise why steel was popular, with the American manufacturers at least.

    The three crosscut saws I filed with angled teeth. This produces what we call sloped gullets. However the gullets are a consequence of this style of filing and not the object. We have discussed in the past that it increases the gullet size, but I am not so sure of that: The gullet may be indeed be apparently deeper, but that is only on one side. On the other side it is higher. I would suggest that one negates the other and it may offer no increased volume over teeth filed horizontally.

    P1040498 (Medium).JPG

    I also believe that some strength is added to the tooth as the cutting edge is not so long compared to the trailing edge or back of the tooth. However, because these saws are for me as my users, I filed them the way I like them.

    P1040500 (Medium).JPG

    I have not tried these saws yet (with the exception of the largest back saw, but I have refiled that since I tried it a while ago) so the small dags are the feather edge that I normally knock off with a brass brush or even my fingers and sometimes during the first sawing .

    Earlier I mentioned that with the smaller closed handle tenon saw I may have made a nonsense with the filing. The problem was that I used a thicker sawplate than would be normal for a saw having 14ppi. It is .029" compared to say .023. The combination of small teeth and relatively thick plate produce an unusual issue. The sloped filing makes a very short tooth. I will give it a try first, but I may have to refile horizontally (that's the file position).

    P1040510 (Medium).JPGP1040513 (Medium).JPG

    I should add that normally 14ppi would be filed rip and the problems I have encountered are probably why that would be the norm. I can see from these pix above that in any event more filing is required as the tooth shape is not completely there.The camera has better magnification than my spectacles and headband magnifier!

    When I took the pix earlier it was dark in the shed as a brief storm had come through, but when I went back out to take the pix above it was sunny and in a better natural light the Silky Oak shone better.

    P1040514.jpg

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

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  3. #152
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    I reckon there would have been times whn you didn't think you'd get there, eh?

    Considering this was your first serious go at saw-making, Paul, and a pretty ambitious goal to boot, I think it's turned out remarkably well. There've been no major disasters (at least none you're admitting to ) & you've managed to get all the handles you began with through to completion, blades toothed & functioning, and from the pics, they all look like they're in much better condition than the originals.

    I was pleased as punch with my first-ever handle when I first made it, and I used it for 20 years before I decided it looked too amateurish, so I replaced it with something a bit more acceptable to my eye a couple of years ago. Your handles look much better than my first effort, so I suspect it might be quite a while before you think about replacing any.....

    Cheers,
    IW

  4. #153
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    Forgot to comment on the 'funny teeth'.

    Yes, I think you've discovered why it's not a good idea to put fine teeth on thick plate. I think you will find you get slightly better-looking teeth with straight-across filing, but also, I think you may have used a larger size of file than I would for that size tooth. A sharper cornered (i.e. shorter or slimmer version) file will deepen the gullets & make them look a bit more in proportion, too.

    I know you were following the original tooth sizes, but I would have ignored that & put coarser teeth on a couple. I can't see many advantages to fine teeth unless you cut a lot of very narrow stock. I used to prefer finer pitches on mid-sized saws, but now I think that was mostly because of my not-so-good sharpening skills. You can do a poorer job on fine teeth and they'll seem ok, because the average error is small and they will still cut without too much roughness. However, with larger teeth, the capacity for more variation in the teeth is greater, and that will make the action quite rough As I've gotten a bit better, I can get a better result on larger teeth, and find myself preferring them for jobs where I once would have used a finer pitch..

    Cheers,
    IW

  5. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Forgot to comment on the 'funny teeth'.

    Yes, I think you've discovered why it's not a good idea to put fine teeth on thick plate. I think you will find you get slightly better-looking teeth with straight-across filing, but also, I think you may have used a larger size of file than I would for that size tooth. A sharper cornered (i.e. shorter or slimmer version) file will deepen the gullets & make them look a bit more in proportion, too.

    I know you were following the original tooth sizes, but I would have ignored that & put coarser teeth on a couple. I can't see many advantages to fine teeth unless you cut a lot of very narrow stock. I used to prefer finer pitches on mid-sized saws, but now I think that was mostly because of my not-so-good sharpening skills. You can do a poorer job on fine teeth and they'll seem ok, because the average error is small and they will still cut without too much roughness. However, with larger teeth, the capacity for more variation in the teeth is greater, and that will make the action quite rough As I've gotten a bit better, I can get a better result on larger teeth, and find myself preferring them for jobs where I once would have used a finer pitch..

    Cheers,
    Ian

    The teeth are not too funny if inadvertently you catch your fingers on them.

    We will have to see how the teeth look when I re-visit them tomorrow, but as I said, I suspect I will have to revert to horizontal filing for that single saw. I don't have too much information on the original saws regards crosscut or rip and much is just my assumption. The sawplate of the closed handle smaller saw in question may be thicker than the original Kenyon. I will check that tomorrow. The original was .029", which is still relatively heavy gauge for a saw with fine teeth, but not as heavy as the .035" that I suspect my saw is as I cut it from a handsaw. Previously I said it was .029", but I think I may have confused that with the original saw.

    I agree about the teeth and some coarser teeth would have been preferable, and easier, but there was always a trade off between going with the originals specs and having user friendly tools. As it was, the timbers were already completely different and really it is only the silhouettes that resembles the Seaton saws.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  6. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    I reckon there would have been times whn you didn't think you'd get there, eh?

    Considering this was your first serious go at saw-making, Paul, and a pretty ambitious goal to boot, I think it's turned out remarkably well. There've been no major disasters (at least none you're admitting to ) & you've managed to get all the handles you began with through to completion, blades toothed & functioning, and from the pics, they all look like they're in much better condition than the originals.

    I was pleased as punch with my first-ever handle when I first made it, and I used it for 20 years before I decided it looked too amateurish, so I replaced it with something a bit more acceptable to my eye a couple of years ago. Your handles look much better than my first effort, so I suspect it might be quite a while before you think about replacing any.....

    Cheers,
    Ian

    There were some times when I thought I wasn't going to get there. Fortunately SWMBO has gone off to Uluru with our daughter and her partner and I have been left to my own devices (actually to my own vices) and this enabled me to rearrange the priorities for various projects .

    The major disaster has revolved around that small closed handle back saw. Apart from the dental issue with that one courtesy of the super thick saw plate (more to come on that one) you may recall that I lost one of the saw nuts early on in the piece. Well, blow me down if it didn't happen again. Lost both nuts . They just went AWOL!! I still have not found them, but I thought, I can do this. I bought a length of brass rod on a trip to Toowoomba. Having had a little experience in this before, I took a good stack of the family silver to offer in exchange. However as I was vague when asked how much I needed; I think I said 300mm to 1m the guy came back and said he had a 700mm offcut at a reduced rate of $12. I thought quickly and said yes to that estimating that even with a few practice runs I should be able to get two nuts out of that.

    I turned out to be easy. I drilled out the pilot hole first, tapped the 5mm thread, filed down the 1/2" rod to the required diameter, cut off two nuts and chamfered the sides on bench grinder. I cut the slots before each nut was sawn off. It would have been a very different story if it was the bolts I had lost. I would have been on the phone to you very sharpish. And I still have about 690mm of 1/2" brass rod left ((should I be careless again) . In fact I am still expecting the nuts to reappear at some point in time.

    Just returning to the sawplate, there was another issue with the combination of thick plate and small teeth and it is that it is extremely difficult to apply any set. The tooth does not want to bend over such a short distance. A few moments ago I tried the two closed handle saws on a piece of Forest Red Gum (your favourite cranky timber) 45mm x 40mm and this was the result from the small saw:

    P1040516 (Medium).JPG

    It's big brother:

    P1040517 (Medium).JPG

    and a comparison of the two with the coarse tooth on the left not that I really need to say that :

    P1040518 (Medium).JPG

    I measured the sawplate of the smaller closed handle saw (Tas Tiger Myrtle) at .032" at the toothline. I cut this plate out of a hand saw and there is some taper at the toe towards the back (.029") , but virtually none towards the heel at the back. This was because the plate was cut from the middle to handle end of the donor plate. This started me thinking that firstly I will do some more sharpening, although surprisingly the saw cut well, and if that is not satisfactory I will look at further tapering the plate on a linisher and trying a "no set" saw similar to those you have experimented with along the lines of the Disston No.77. At that point however, I may re-tooth completely to a coarser regime. If I had a re-toother I would just do it, but because I haven't, I will consider more carefully and more rationally. I can confirm that Disston No.12 steel is good stuff, but really tough on files!

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  7. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Lost both nuts . They just went AWOL!! I still have not found them
    I bet they're in Uluru. You know who helped you find them last time !!

  8. #157
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    Paul,
    I will write more later(but o my they look fantastic)
    But just for now regarding your nuts,
    I just leave this here for you to ponder and maybe have a drink over while the family is out of harms way.


    Cheers Matt,

  9. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by poundy View Post
    I bet they're in Uluru. You know who helped you find them last time !!
    Poundy

    I had forgotten that. On the positive side I am thankful that some of you read these posts.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  10. #159
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    Matt

    You may remember that I made up one of those parts trays. I don't think I could have made the sides high enough .

    And thanks for rubbing it in!

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  11. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Matt

    You may remember that I made up one of those parts trays. I don't think I could have made the sides high enough .

    And thanks for rubbing it in!

    Regards
    Paul
    Paul,
    With regards rub it in [emoji849].
    May I suggest a parts tray larger, to contain the parts tray.
    Is this helping?

    Cheers Matt,

  12. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
    Paul,
    With regards rub it in [emoji849].
    May I suggest a parts tray larger, to contain the parts tray.
    Is this helping?

    Cheers Matt,
    Not really: If the tray is too large, the parts get lost in the tray. The lost nuts are still somewhere in the shed: I think.''



    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  13. #162
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    If this were Lotto or one of those other ball game type shows where the chance of winning is almost the same as if you don't participate, this saw would be the "supplementary."

    It really is outside of the Kenyon thing but it does have the bullnose toe and a Kenyon handle. I wanted a crosscut short saw like this to compliment the rip saw I made up a while back. I had thought the saw plate was an old No.12. Yes I know, yet another No.12, but when I removed the handle, there was no "X" stamp and unfortunately the etch had disappeared before it came into my hands.

    All I can really say is that it appeared to have an original No.12 handle and corresponding medallion and there was no evidence of hole fudging in the saw plate. Filed with an 18tpi hacksaw blade as the template, I meant it to be 9ppi, but of course it ended up as 10ppi.

    P1040532 (Medium).JPGP1040533 (Medium).JPGP1040534 (Medium).JPG

    It was only when I grabbed the rip saw that I realised I had forgotten to file off a piece of saw plate protruding above the handle. This was corrected for the pic with both saws.

    P1040536 (Medium).JPG

    I wanted a dished medallion, but I did not have the smaller size (13/16") in Warranted Superior. However I had a Disston medallion from the 1878 - 1888 period, which I thought was appropriate, although a WS match to the other saw would have been better.

    Teeth were angled:


    P1040538 (Medium).JPGP1040539 (Medium).JPG

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  14. #163
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    Paul, while Matt is winding you up, I may as well put in the boot too. Has it occurred to you that these saws are going to cause some poor chap like yourself an agony of head-scratching in 100 years time? Handle & blade styles from one country, medallions from another, bolts that are clearly not of the indicated era, and even a frustrating hint of an etch on one. But all half a world away from where such things were spawned - how is the poor fellow or fellow-ess going to make sense of it all........??

    Cheers,
    IW

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Paul, while Matt is winding you up, I may as well put in the boot too. Has it occurred to you that these saws are going to cause some poor chap like yourself an agony of head-scratching in 100 years time? Handle & blade styles from one country, medallions from another, bolts that are clearly not of the indicated era, and even a frustrating hint of an etch on one. But all half a world away from where such things were spawned - how is the poor fellow or fellow-ess going to make sense of it all........??

    Cheers,
    Ian, are you suggesting that possibly Benjamin Seaton and Henry Studley's tool chests along with other famous collections may be nothing more than elaborate hoaxes and that these guys are laughing at us from beyond the grave?

    A part of me kind of likes that idea.
    Theory and practice are the same in theory, but different in practice.

  16. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Paul, while Matt is winding you up, I may as well put in the boot too. Has it occurred to you that these saws are going to cause some poor chap like yourself an agony of head-scratching in 100 years time? Handle & blade styles from one country, medallions from another, bolts that are clearly not of the indicated era, and even a frustrating hint of an etch on one. But all half a world away from where such things were spawned - how is the poor fellow or fellow-ess going to make sense of it all........??

    Cheers,
    I may have to consider taking them with me.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

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