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  1. #61
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    but I am a little lacking on the saw front and these are the only two Gentlemen's saws I have.

    Paul,
    Dear fellow are you to believe whole heartedly that my self or anybody else having followed your path for the last few years are to believe your statement.

    “But I am little lacking on the saw front”

    Now now, I may be off younger years than some, but I ussure my ears are now dry behind them.

    Cheers Matt.[emoji6][emoji6][emoji6][emoji6]

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
    but I am a little lacking on the saw front and these are the only two Gentlemen's saws I have.

    Paul,
    Dear fellow are you to believe whole heartedly that my self or anybody else having followed your path for the last few years are to believe your statement.

    “But I am little lacking on the saw front”

    Now now, I may be off younger years than some, but I ussure my ears are now dry behind them.

    Cheers Matt.[emoji6][emoji6][emoji6][emoji6]
    Matt

    I thought it was worth a try: For the sympathy angle!

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Matt

    I thought it was worth a try: For the sympathy angle!

    Regards
    Paul
    It was a try yes, that I will agree on [emoji23]

    Cheers Matt,

  5. #64
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    Default A Crazy Saw Service

    Paul.
    Just a little digression or what ever that big word is.
    I was re reading your excellent last contributions and noted this little number.
    Is this one you made earlier



    Cheers Matt

  6. #65
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    Nope. That is one of two Ian Wilkie saws. I was careless in looking after it and it developed some surface rust by being kept in my open shed: A travesty I will have to correct.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  7. #66
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    Yes, I saw the red stuff, tch tch! But as Spike Milligan said, "people in glass houses should drawer curtains before removing trousers"! During the last spell of hot weather (when was that!?) I must have shed a goodly drop of sweat on one of my favourite back saws without noticing it, as I was hanging it back in its place. The next time I took the saw out, & it can only have been a few days later at most, I was confronted with this: Rust smear.jpg

    Bummer!

    After much sanding with W&D and metal polish, it's still highly visible: Rust smear 2.jpg



    This modern saw plate is really prone to rusting, I'm afraid. If you don't store it carefully & keep some sort of moisture barrier on it when not in use, the dreaded red stuff grows on it like fungus on a piece of old bread! Fortunately, your little crop looks pretty superficial and should respond well to the sort of treatment you give to your old saws, but I've found it does take a lot of elbow-grease to remove even superficial rust completely.

    I guess we can't expect a new saw to remain flawless forever.........

    Cheers,
    IW

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post



    This modern saw plate is really prone to rusting, I'm afraid. If you don't store it carefully & keep some sort of moisture barrier on it when not in use, the dreaded red stuff grows on it like fungus on a piece of old bread! Fortunately, your little crop looks pretty superficial and should respond well to the sort of treatment you give to your old saws, but I've found it does take a lot of elbow-grease to remove even superficial rust completely.

    I guess we can't expect a new saw to remain flawless forever.........

    Cheers,
    Ian

    I am glad you have mentioned that as that's my impression too. I will have to clean up the plate. Sept 1: A spring clean!!

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  9. #68
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    I now have two plates cleaned up and partially shaped, the cross cut hand saw and the largest of the back saws. The light is a little unkind as the plates do not look as scratchy as they appear here.
    P1040243 (Medium).JPG

    One point of interest is the nib angled forward on the hand saw, which was a characteristic of the Kenyon brand. I don't know if other manufacturers had the same style. I have really only seen the vertical nib and that is mainly with the American saw manufacturers.

    P1040241 (Medium).JPG

    I felt guilty about Ian Wilkie's saw so I gave it a quick clean. The brass came up well but the modern 1095 saw plate stains a little too easily. I only treated it with 400g W&D and did not remove the handle so I could probably improve significantly on this result. However I doubt the staining can be removed completely. On the positive side it looks better than it did.

    P1040244 (Medium).JPG

    As I was in the mood (guilt induced) I decided that the rusty gentleman's saw had no right to look the way it did so it too got a very quick once over.

    P1040245 (Medium).JPG

    There was a little progress on handle shaping, but not enough to warrant pix.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    ...... The brass came up well but the modern 1095 saw plate stains a little too easily. I only treated it with 400g W&D and did not remove the handle so I could probably improve significantly on this result. However I doubt the staining can be removed completely. On the positive side it looks better than it did......
    Paul, I don't know for sure if the saw plate that was used on that saw is 1095, it could be another alloy. It was simply labeled 'saw plate' by the people selling it, and according to them, made in Sweden. It's quite likely that it is 1095, because that seems to be a very common choice for these kinds of roles due to its straightforward & predictable hardening/tempering properties.

    1095 is a pretty simple mix compared with the really fancy steels: 98%+ iron, about 1% carbon, and the rest made up of traces of sulphur & phosphorous, with a dash (about half a %) of manganese. What is annoying is that it doesn't seem to develop that thin coating of protective oxides over the surface like on my old saws. My old Disstons, the youngest of which is a septuagenarian, have all got that thin coating of 'natural blueing' (there are a few small pits on a couple, but nothing serious), & as long as I keep them clean, they remain unchanged from year to year. But this new plate will rust at the slightest provocation, developing those crazy-pattern, deep zigzag pits like the one I showed above. I have a Tyzack with a so-called "silver steel" blade bought new about 1980 and it behaves just the same as the new stuff. The only way to keep them looking new is to be extremely diligent about applying some wax or whatever moisture-barrier you prefer before you put them away after use. Down here in our near-coastal climate, an open till is just an open invitation to rust, so I keep all mine in closed cupboards. But despite all my care, the nasty stuff sneaks in whenever I let my guard down!

    Cheers,
    IW

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    What is annoying is that it doesn't seem to develop that thin coating of protective oxides over the surface like on my old saws. My old Disstons, the youngest of which is a septuagenarian, have all got that thin coating of 'natural blueing' (there are a few small pits on a couple, but nothing serious), & as long as I keep them clean, they remain unchanged from year to year. But this new plate will rust at the slightest provocation, developing those crazy-pattern, deep zigzag pits like the one I showed above.
    So were ALL the old-time saws made with this superior alloy that developed the protective patina? Or is it just that all the ones that have withstood the test of time were, and the others have long-since rusted away?
    Theory and practice are the same in theory, but different in practice.

  12. #71
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    Doug

    The real answer is that I certainly don't know for sure and maybe "we" don't know either. However to put things into perspective. The Disston No.12 that I show cleaned up in post #68 is over a hundred years old and has cleaned up better than the saw I bought from Ian about three years ago ( or perhaps four years) and even allowing for my carelessness and that I could devote more effort into the cleaning to achieve a better result (I only used a single grade of W & D and did not remove the handle for plate cleaning) it will not restore to the same level.

    Please be assured that the stain damage is entirely my fault, but the point I am making is that the steel is affected in a more permanent way with this modern steel and in a very short period of time. I have no way of knowing the composition of the No.12 steel or indeed that of any of the old saws, but they appear to be more easily restored to something approaching their original condition. Pitting cannot be effectively removed but frequently stain can be minimised.

    Ian

    I have always assumed that the "95" in 1095 steel represents .95% carbon. I think that high carbon steel is normally steel with greater than .5% carbon.

    I found this comment on a knife making website:

    "1095 steel, when used in knives, holds a great edge and is very easy to sharpen. However, the properties of this type of steel give it a tendency to easily rust. These kinds of blades will usually have some kind of coating to combat rusting, but so long as the blade is properly cared for, rust should not be too great a problem for anyone."

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    "1095 steel, when used in knives, holds a great edge and is very easy to sharpen. However, the properties of this type of steel give it a tendency to easily rust. These kinds of blades will usually have some kind of coating to combat rusting, but so long as the blade is properly cared for, rust should not be too great a problem for anyone."
    Speaking as a knife maker with a whole two knives to his credit so far, 1075 is where you start out and if that goes well you graduate to 1084 and when you have that working ok then go to 1095 before branching out into more complex steels. Having said that it also can depend on the size and intended use of the knife. The "10" series steels are fairly easy to forge, quench and temper and as far as I am aware do not have any major problems with rust when used for knife making. My second knife was made of 1084 recycled form a piece of an old plow harrow, which was quite rusty and pitted, but the blade shows no sign of rust, but then it is generally sheathed when not in use. Maybe we need to keep our saws in saw-socks.
    Theory and practice are the same in theory, but different in practice.

  14. #73
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    Doug, as with any corrodible steel, you can certainly keep 1095 bright & shiny if you fuss over it a little. Most of my saws with what I either know to be 1095 or or what I suspect is a close relative are in pretty good shape because I use them a lot & keep a pretty close eye on them.

    What I'm whinging about is just how easily things go to blazes if I'm not careful, plus the really savage way the oxidation bites into the metal. I'm sure there's a very good reason why this happens the way it does, and why the old saw metal doesn't respond the same way. I asked the question why it was so a year or two back, hoping someone with metallurgical knowledge could provide an answer, but if anyone like that did read the post, they remained silent...

    Cheers,
    IW

  15. #74
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    Ironically, I think it is the purity of modern steels that makes them susceptible to rust.
    The inclusion of other random ingredients in older steels probably made them more variable in properties - strength, toughness, brittleness but probably improved their ability to resist rust. Of course, those that were prone to rust are probably not around.

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by hiroller View Post
    Ironically, I think it is the purity of modern steels that makes them susceptible to rust.
    I think that it is probably the opposite, its all the extra additives in small quantities that trigger the rust. If you get hold of some recycled scrap steel you will see it rust as you look at it.

    Pure cast iron doesn't rust.

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