Thread: What happened to all _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Originally Posted by planemaker

Hi Ian. I received an order during the week of 12 x (3 Square Needle Files/180 mm x Cut #3) Glardon Vallorbe, Swiss Made (Blue Box with yellow sticker on top). There has been no change in their quality.

Stewie;

That's good to hear, Stewie. I used one of mine last week & thought it wore out rather more quickly than I expected, so I'm hoping it was just an outlier that slipped through, or I hadn't properly removed the work-hardened edge of the plate I was working on. Up til now, I've been very happy with them!

Cheers,

I get the chance every now and then to do a little more on the handle of my S&J restoration project, but have found that my next challenge will be slotting the blade into the handle. I don't have a saw that will cut into the slot deep enough!

Craig

Originally Posted by Simplicity

I mostly agree with what Ian is saying .
I don't have the experience of Ian either( that's my disclaimer thingy thing for being a novice)
The reason I think ,it's a good idea to have the teeth cut out else were ,is to save those seeming harder to get good files .
For just sharping the teeth not hogging out the teeth .
Now I know ,it only takes say 6/7 strokes for a small tooth .
But the point I was trying to make ,was to preserve the precious file as much as possible .

Yep, I hear you man. As an example, I completely destroyed a 5" DEST file the other day, toothing a 10" 12 tpi saw blade. I then used two sides of a second file to form & sharpen the (crosscut pattern) teeth. These files cost me about $8 each, bought by the box. So if you can get the same saw toothed for anything between $10 & $15, it's not a lot more than it would cost you for one of those files. I was just making the point that (with half-decent files!) the toothing part is very straightforward and easy to do pretty well.

It is indeed very sensible to save your best files for sharpening. For rip saws, the sharpening step is easy and doesn't stress the file much, but it's a good idea to do the sharpening steps with a clean, fresh corner - the better a file cuts, the easier it is to control. Crosscuts are particularly demanding. When you are adding fleam & slope to your roughed-in teeth, you want to have a good file. If teeth shatter or corners wear quickly, you can't maintain clean, repetitive cuts. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to make symmetrical, even teeth. DAMHIKT! So by all means, save your very best files for that operation...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Morbius

...... but have found that my next challenge will be slotting the blade into the handle. I don't have a saw that will cut into the slot deep enough!...

I guess that is a problem, Craig.
I've made myself a couple of small saws out of scrap saw plate for deepening/rounding the bottoms of handle slots: Slotting saws.jpg
They don't need to be fancy, and are easy enough to make. You really only need to tooth the rounded end, it does all the work. The teeth are filed to cut on the pull stroke, and given a reasonably aggressive rake. The rake angle was judged using a stick on the end of the file, that I kept roughly tangential to the curve. I don't put any set on these saws because they are made from plate that matches the sawplate and I want to keep the slot a close fit, but it can mean they get a bit 'sticky' if the slot has to be substantially deepened. You could fix that by putting just a touch of set on it, but even the minimum set you can apply with your sawset may be too much. However, that's easily fixed by wiping the sides over an oilstone once or twice until you judge it's just right for the job.

It's fairly slow-going with so few teeth actually cutting, and with little or no set, you have no steerage, so make sure your starter kerf is accurate. But it gets the job done...

Cheers,

I'm not sure how thick the plate is on these, but for the price, you could get one and put some teeth on the rounded section and use the saw upside down! You could even probably get away with turning the handle upside down. Or better still make your own!
http://www.bunnings.com.au/trojan-30...e-saw_p5710137
Trojan Laminate Saw.jpg

As a novice woodworker, I have had great pleasure in following this thread, even if my "understanding" of hand saws is quite limited. The photos show these saws as beautiful objects in themselves, demanding to make and individual in their characteristics.

Am I far off in thinking that a saw with some 15ppi and a plate of 0.015" is getting quite close to the vital statistics of some Japanese saws?

If this is the case, why is it that "our" saws are said to perform better in harder woods? I appreciate that the "design" of our saws has evolved over time taking into account the characteristics of our timbers but as our finer saws are "closer" to the Japanese "design" why the difference?

If the question is stupid, by all means say so... and why!

Yvan

Originally Posted by yvan

.....Am I far off in thinking that a saw with some 15ppi and a plate of 0.015" is getting quite close to the vital statistics of some Japanese saws?

If this is the case, why is it that "our" saws are said to perform better in harder woods? I appreciate that the "design" of our saws has evolved over time taking into account the characteristics of our timbers but as our finer saws are "closer" to the Japanese "design" why the difference?

yvan, it's said there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers, so I'll do me best!

You are indeed correct that 15 thou plate is one of the common features of an 'ultra-thin' western D/T and some Japanese saws, but there the 'vital' statistics end, I think.

Ignoring the fact that they are designed to cut on the 'pull' stroke, because I think that's irrelevant to you question, the teeth on Japanese saws are very deep and of a completely different profile from the simple, triangular western teeth. They also usually harden their sawplate to several more notches up the scale from what we commonly use, which makes them brittle. The combination of skinny & brittle teeth is what makes them less suitable for very had woods. They are probably ok in careful hands, but saws don't always get to choose who uses them, do they?

You could debate the merits of either style of saw 'til the cows come home, each has its pros & cons, & I don't think either is clearly superior overall. In skilled hands, they are capable of identical results (clean, straight cuts), so it's more a matter of what you get used to than anything else. I'd pushed saws for far too long when I first tried pull saws, and just couldn't get on with them (I tried, honest!).

WRT the thinness of the plate, that's another debate that could go on forever. Conventional wisdom and intuition says that the thinner the plate, the quicker it cuts. In several trials I've made with saws that were identical in all but the thickness of the plate, I found no difference in speed of cut. It probably took a bit more effort to push the thicker saws, but I doubt my muscles could pick it, if I were blindfolded. Given the difference between the thickest and thinnest plate I compared was 0.010", that's probably not all that surprising. I have a D/T saw in 15 thou plate and it's my all-time favourite small D/T cum small tenon saw, but I think I would like it just as much in 20 thou plate, because my liking has to do with the tooth pitch/profile and handle shape/angle, which have all been settled on after much trial & error as suiting me & what I most often use it for. Several people I've made similar saws for say they love them, but I proudly handed it to one woodworker, of no mean experience, for his opinion. I was hoping to see his eyes light up with pleasure, but instead, he disliked it & said so in no uncertain terms! No single design pleases everyone - we all have our own ways & preferences......

Cheers,

It seems that you can also get an Irwin veneer saw with the rounded section already toothed: http://www.bunnings.com.au/irwin-jac...d-saw_p5712931

IanW

Thank you for your detailed explanation/observations. Much appreciated. yvan

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Chesand
If I'm not being rude what did it cost to have the teeth cut..?
In one way ,that's quite clever considering the file debacle that's on at that moment.
Ie as you have done ,get the grunt work done if it is reasonable price and they know what there doing ,then do the fine tune your self at bench later .

$15-00. I reckon it was worth it to have them cut evenly.

Originally Posted by Chesand

$15-00. I reckon it was worth it to have them cut evenly.

That's quite reasonable for one or two saw plates. Three dollars more than the cost of the cr*p file I bought in desperation a couple of weeks ago, which I used up toothing a single 10" saw! Plus, I think you would have got a far better job from the sharpener than you would have managed with a poor file, so I reckon you are comfortably ahead on the deal...

You don't need to defend the decision to get them done - anything that helps you get a start is a good thing, in my view. As I said, cutting in teeth is pretty easy once you get a bit of practice and confidence (and some decent files! ), but it does seem intimidating at first (well, it did to me). The only bad thing that comes out of this is you will soon not be able to tolerate a dull or poorly-cutting saw, so you'll have given yourself one more chore to do in keeping your tools up to scratch.

Cheers,

Originally Posted by planemaker

those eager forum members keen to make some backsaws. Ian & RayG were most generous when requested to run special workshops; the supply & distribution of saw plate & brass back was organised. Still a lack of response in completed backsaws..

Stewie;

Stewie

Still in the pipeline .

Regards
Paul