Thread: Im doing another one for Ian

Well this is my effort since last posting 11/06 I think.
And my effort since then.

Yep that's how much I've done.
(Set the saw blade further in to the handle)
And a reflection of how much time I've had in my creative zone.
Not a happy camber at the moment!!!!
The life work/workshop balance is all wrong!!!

Matt[emoji45]

Yeah, well, work sure gets in the way of life, but retirement isn't the total answer either, Matt. So far this year I've only managed to finish one project for myself, so have fallen even further behind my own schedule...

You've got the blade well snugged into the handle, which I like to do because I think getting your hand up close to the action gives maximum control of the saw. You've also got plenty of metal to put the saw bolts through. It looks like it's going to be an elegant & functional handle (some day! ). I'm waiting to see how you blend the spine into the sloped top of the handle.....

Cheers,

Ian ,
For a guy who keeps saying his eye sight is going .
You have a sharp vision sir.
Yet again ,I get caught out by you lol.
Yes, I put the blade in a bit high ,for the pics ,it will be sitting a little lower when it's all done.
Im to inpatient sometimes for my own good.
Yes plenty of meat around the saw bolts now to.
I got caught out with an early attempt at a saw handle with them being a little to close to the out side edge (whoops.)
I let you guess what happened when I tightened the saw bolts up?
You may even guess what I said?
Jury is still out with me ,on the spline on this one .
I mean ,yes it will get a spline well of course.
It's just wether I get my files out as well?
I'm going to try and be a little cautious with the files (maybe)!
Also have some ideas I want to try with saw bolts to , immmmm.
I am hoping for more time when I retire .
I thought that was what it was all about ??

Cheers Matt

Ok ,I've been very inactive with this saw lately.
Winter kind of got in the way, and my shed is very very cold.
Plus we have been quite busy with work ,arrrrr.
Any way, a question for my learned saw friends ,I'm thinking of doing a folded back for this one .
And was wondering what metal gauge to use
? I imagine they were mostly folded from mild steel in the past.
Also any one been down this path with any helpful suggestions I'm all ears ?

Hope to finish this one before the decades out [emoji3][emoji3]

Matt

I think Rob Streeper is your man on this subject as all his back saws have folded backs and I think he has worked them in brass, mild steel and maybe stainless too.

Regards
Paul

Wow Paul.
That was lighting fast response.
Your right thanks for poking my memory.
I remember Rob talking about some of the folded backs he has folded.
I think the big question in my mind is not so much a how question.
But what gauge thickness question

Rob helllllooooo you out there

Cheers Matt

Yep, I'm quite useless to you when it comes to folding backs, Matt, haven't attempted it & not likely to. There are probably advantages in folding if you are making a lot of backs but for the very low-volume maker like myself, slotting is easier and more within the range of my simple gear & talents. I can't see any functional difference between slotting & folding if both are done properly, but if you are after a more 'traditional' look, folding's the go, of course.

Good luck, and keep us posted on progress, of course....
Cheers,

I'm here Matt.

For the medium weight brass backs I use 0.065" thick stock. For the heavy brass I use 0.125" thick stock. For steel I use 0.085" or 0.095" and for stainless 0.095".

The brass and steel need to be annealed part way through the folding process, otherwise they break. This breakage is usually immediate but it can be delayed. I've actually heard from a guy who complained that some folded backs he'd bought elsewhere had split after he made them into saws. There has been some scuttlebut floating around the net about not annealing brass during folding but I can say unequivocally that it must be done if you're starting with sheet. I anneal the thick brass twice during forming, medium brass once and steel once. By the point the backs are fully folded they are work hardened again. Stainless hasn't needed annealing and it work hardens to produce an extremely stiff and light weight back, in fact it's my favorite on the basis of functionality. Brass is prettier but also much heavier.

Thanks Rob,and Ian.
Yes I thought I would be annealing them.
If you think about it ,the metal on the out side of the curve is actually stretching a hell of a lot.
The inside is getting quite thick like my gut.
So some heat there would be quite handy.
I would want some heat in my back if I had to bend that far lol.
Since posting my request, I've been running some ideas over in the grey matter.
While doing a kitchen makeover.
Once I get five min to myself, (a precious resource)
I may just have a crack(should that be hit) at it.Ian I write a full report and have it posted to you in triplicate no less.
I'm also curious to wonder what gauge we could get away with?
While still keeping the saw plate stiff once installed.
Yes ,I understand the bigger the saw the stronger the back to a point.
So considering said saw is only going to be a small saw with the plate being somewhere between 200/300 mm in length.
50/70 mm deep.
You said ,you use 0.085 so ,that's just over 2mm if I've done me maths right in steel.
4 mm once folded plus plate thickness.
That's properly what I will be using steel that is.
Not wanting to go brass on this one.
I always thought stainless steel was quite brittle I could be wrong?
I wonder if even something like 1.5 mm would work.
I have a small gents saw with a folded back.
The metal thickness looks to be about a 1 mm thick maybe less.
But it is a very small saw grated.
Unfortunately ,I don't have my metal gauge chart to hand.(wire gauge is the correct term I think)

Cheers Matt

Matt

I think stainless steel tends to be tough and ductile, which would be why Rob can fold it in half without annealing. I found that out the hard way when years ago I made up some cutting tips for a set of agricultural rippers from 10mm stainless. They wore out as I watched them!

I was wondering if you have or have access to a hydraulic press and a vee block. That may save quite a bit of effort in starting the fold. I have a home made press that I was going to experiment with at some time in the future, but I have not done that and won't for a long time, so I can't really advise whether it is helpful. Again Rob may be able to offer an opinion on this as he seems to be the only one folding backs as opposed to slitting.

One other thing to remember is that with brass there are many compositions called brass as it is an alloy. The same is true of stainless steel with a choice of grades. Mild steel is simple: It's mild steel. Different again when you go to carbon steel as that will vary, but we are not concerned with that metal for the back.

Regards
Paul

Paul

I think I'm afraid on the stainless steel front.
So I will give that one a miss for now I'm to much of a whimp lol.
I'm going for Mr meek and mild steel.
Nice and soft like me.
I do actually have a Ten Ton pipe bending press.
The V blocks I don't have ??
I also have a Jenny or common name a Bead roller.
Which would absolutely be the best tool to start the fold with.
Though it will struggle with a heavier gauge metal.
It's really only good for light gauge use.
I have even now just thought of welding to strips together.
Which I could do quite comfortably.
Immmmm

Cheers Matt
Out of edit time

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

.....I think stainless steel tends to be tough and ductile, which would be why Rob can fold it in half without annealing. I found that out the hard way when years ago I made up some cutting tips for a set of agricultural rippers from 10mm stainless. They wore out as I watched them!...

Paul, "Stainless" is a very broad generic term, so you need to know exactly what you want when obtaining alloys with that moniker. Some are indeed very brittle, but some alloys are soft. I've got a bit of 1/8" thick stuff that I made some cap-irons for planes out of and it's just like working with mild steel 'cept it polishes up like a mirror (& hasn't rusted!).

I was going to ask Rob what alloy he uses, so could you tell us please, Rob? Of course, chances are, as with so many things readily available in the States, we won't be able to get it down here......

Cheers,

Ian

Actually I think most stainless steel is ductile rather than brittle, but as you said you really have to know what you've got. Mainly we would be looking at the austenitic alloys. 304 and 316 are the common grades with 316 often referred to as marine grade. However I am rapidly starting to get out of my depth here and it really is beyond the scope of this thread.

A couple of little pieces of trivia however for you ( and then I have got to get stuck into some real work) and that is most stainless steel is non-magnetic, but not all. Check your stainless steel cutlery set and you will probably find that the knives are magnetic and the forks are not (or only barely magnetic). I believe it is related to the amount of nickel in the alloy. I hope I have the right metal there.

Also some stainless steel rusts. Again it depends on the alloy composition. We have stainless steel tubes in our supercritical boilers at work that will stand temperatures up to 640 deg C, but that is not the sort of stainless we are likely to encounter on the back of Matt's saw.

Of course you are right in that stainless polishes to a mirror finish, and significantly, stays that way.

Matt, if you are going down the mild steel back track you might like to consider "blueing" the back. I am not exactly sure of the process, but I believe it involves coating the steel with linseed oil (boiled?) and then subjecting it to heat. This is to prevent rusting, but equally you could clear coat it too.

Regards
Paul

Thank you,
You two,
Paul I was actually thinking of blacking not blueing.
Tho we could be talking the same thing.
And I too have better make a buck today
Or I won't be doing any folded backs lol