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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac S View Post
    It seems like everyone filing more than a few saws has reached the same conclusions. Pferd and Bahco are in the same tier, but I slightly prefer Bahco.

    I sincerely hope Grobet holds the line on their needle files. Maybe the combined demand from saw sharpeners and jewelers and whoever else uses them counts for something.

    I presume the Grobet files you write of are the ones sold as saw files. I don't sell any of those files, as I have not had good luck in the past with them. I bought many dozen a few years ago, and was very excited to get them. I quickly soured on them, though, because of their poor quality. I still have a few boxes left that I occasionally use for reshaping teeth. They really aren't useful for anything else that I do.

    The only Grobet files I sell are the needle files, and I haven't seen any decline in the quality of those files. I use those instead of the 4" XX files now, partly because I don't know of anyone making a good saw file in that size. I also have come to really like the sharper corners of the needle files for teeth that are about 11 or 12 ppi and finer.
    Yes, those were grobet saw files. The worst thing is that I did get one box originally and they were decent. So I ordered four more and got them and they were junk.

    I can't imagine that they can allow the needle files to go to junk, unless they don't want to sell to jewelers and craftsmen. Thanks for clarifying that's all that's left from them that's any good.

    Bahcos have a bit wider corner than other files I've had, but in the sizes I use for them, I've never had anything stick in the gullets. I just try to pay attention to what I'm doing and look to see what I last sharpened with, but my supply of non-bahcos is running out, and I resharpen a rip saw more than any other type of saw that I have, so the small saws aren't as much of a concern. I guess when my last few swiss 4xx files are gone, I'll have to go to needle files, too.

    I've never bought pferd (mostly because I've never found them available for cheap), and vallorbe i've only bought in jeweler's files (they are good files, though). If bahco stops making good files, we're in trouble.

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    ...and damned good luck sourcing them......

    If you find a retailer who stocks them then you'd better make some noise. The only retailer I've been able to find stocks a poofteenth of their range, and is in Perth.
    You guys need to find an american buddy. It's pretty easy to get boxes of 10 bahcos in anything from slim to xs for $40 to $60 here (a little more for 6 xx slim or very big files), and several boxes could be put in a flat rate box to aus.

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by planemaker View Post
    Hi Isaac. I highly recommend you trial the swiss Vallorbe 3 square needle files. Get the longer ones at 180mm #cut 3. I would not be surprised if you find the edge retention far superior than the Grobets your currently using.
    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    If it's a Grobet or F.Dick or Vallorbe or Glardon needle file then it is made by Glardon in Switzerland, with whatever badge is required for that day.
    Stewie, they are not just identical, they are from the same factory with a different badge. Isaac is already effectively using Vallorbe needles.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac S View Post
    Didn't it take 50 pages to reach this conclusion last year?
    Yeah, you're right Isaac - it just took 50 pages to prove what is in that summary.
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  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.W. View Post
    You guys need to find an american buddy. It's pretty easy to get boxes of 10 bahcos in anything from slim to xs for $40 to $60 here (a little more for 6 xx slim or very big files), and several boxes could be put in a flat rate box to aus.
    We do have a few buddies in the States, but it's the inconvenience of a long wait or horrendous postage cost - none of this place the order and have them the next day caper. The stupid thing is that the local Bahco distributor has most, if not all of the saw files available. It's just that no retailers stock them, which makes me wonder how long the distributor will be able to stock them for - they must sell hardly any.
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  7. #21
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    D.C, Google the supplier you mentioned for Bahco. Given his reviews and my experience I would encourage others to support individuals like Isaac.

    FF, I got a quote from VEK on a box. Doesn't matter which size of saw file a box of 10 is $110

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pac man View Post
    FF, I got a quote from VEK on a box. Doesn't matter which size of saw file a box of 10 is $110
    That smacks of them not having any stock, special order, box only, let's make the pricing easy as they have little interest.
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pac man View Post
    D.C, Google the supplier you mentioned for Bahco. Given his reviews and my experience I would encourage others to support individuals like Isaac.

    FF, I got a quote from VEK on a box. Doesn't matter which size of saw file a box of 10 is $110
    Ouch! I just picked up a box of Nicholson Black Diamond 5" XXslim's for $30 shipping included.
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  10. #24
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    Hi Rob,
    Do you not have trouble with the teeth breaking off of the file, literally? My 5xx grobets certainly do this. I am just trying to use them up at this point, as I had bought several boxes of them. I have the same problem with the 4xx as well. But not as many of those. As others have mentioned the only Grobets that seem to be worth a darn are the needle files. I am actually due to order a couple of boxes. So off to shopping I go. But at some point I will try the Bacho files. But I came across quite a few 6xx , 7x & 7xx NOS K&F files that work fairly well. ( Made in Brazil ) but still better than the others. AT $1.00 each I couldn't not take a chance on them. The quality control was obviously not the best. Once in a while I will get a bad one.

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bontz View Post
    Do you not have trouble with the teeth breaking off of the file, literally?
    LUXURY! Could be worse - here is a 6xx Pferd that was sent to me (the whole box was like it).



    Excellent for those tricky S shaped gullets.

    That's unused btw.
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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    Stewie, they are not just identical, they are from the same factory with a different badge. Isaac is already effectively using Vallorbe needles.
    What you say may be quite true; but from some of the feedback I have reviewed on the quality of the Grobet 3 square needle files being supplied to the U.S market, the Vallorbe swiss files I use do indeed have a superior corner edge retention.

    regards Stewie;

  13. #27
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    Given that they are 200mm long, compared to the usual 180mm, they must be a custom run for Grobet. However, you wouldn't think that they would necessarily be toothed differently, but maybe they are. There are only 3 file factories left in Europe - Glardon, Tome Feteira and Liogier. There is actually a fourth, Stahl Willie who claim that ALL of their tools are made in Germany, but they only make a tiny range of Engineer's Files.

    Isaac I'd be interested to know what is punched in the tang, i.e. "Grobet Suisse" or "Swiss Made" etc, and whether or not the arrow is present.

    Here is the F.Dick version that Glardon makes for them:




    and the Indian saw files that F.Dick and Grobet USA have made for them (the black ink is a dead set give away). This pic was to illustrate the lousy grinding of the blank, which essentially makes them a double cut file:

    Regards, FenceFurniture

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  14. #28
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    For those who haven't seen the report that Isaac mentioned (and that may include D.W. Rob Streeper and Ron Bontz), you can download it from here:
    https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/files-test-report-extensive-testing-23-files-3-experienced-filers-174867
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac S View Post
    .......That's interesting that you can get the 4" DEST from Bahco. Here, I can't find them. LEt me know if you can actually get them. The only DEST saw file I can find from Bahco is the 6" version. I have seen Pferd sold in 5" and 8" versions, but I haven't used those sizes......
    Well (Isaac) I haven't GOT any files yet. Have got as far as looking at Bahco's Australian website, wherein they claim to have quite a range of tapered saw files.

    (Brett) - I'm not even trying to find a retailer, the bigger tool stores here in Brissy carry a pathetic range of files. The only retailer who carries what you might call a 'range' is Blackwoods, but they are such a pita to buy from. Last time I was there, the bloke serving me came back with the wrong files (I'd asked for 'mill' files & he brought the regular flat files), but I'd already waited so damn long, I just paid for what he brought out & left in disgust!
    To get some Bahcos, I planned to do the same as for the Pferd files I bought. Order though one of their listed 'agents', whatever the minimum quantity is (box of 10, I hope). If they work out ok, I will certainly let everyone know. You will probably hear me singing "Hallelulah" from your Blue Mountain retreat.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac S View Post
    .......Regarding the sharp point, just break it off. Does take you in the wrong direction for solving the length problem, though. What length are you using? I use the 200mm files, and if you break off about 3/8" from the end, it is almost identical in length and cross section to a 4" DEST file. I'm only half joking about breaking them, but have done it more than once myself (unintentionally). I use a filing guide, though, so sharp points don't bother me.
    Ditto - have broken many of those sharp ends off, also mostly in the file guide.

    I use mainly 160mm, reason being most of the extra 20mm on the next size is at the sharp end (or so it seems to me!), & I seem to get very little benefit from the extra length. So on a cost/benefit analysis, they simply don't stack up, for me. I get my files from the same chain as Stewie does, but the folks here in Brisbane aren't as generous with their quantity discount, or I lack Stewie's charm & pursasion, so they still cost me more than they ought...

    And just to be different again, I much prefer the 4 cuts for sharpening, and have even started using them for tooth forming. Compared with a single-cut 'regular' saw file, these things just eat metal, so even with a 4 cut, it only takes about 4 strokes to form a tooth for an 18tpi saw, and two more, perhaps, for a 15 tpi saw. The difference in speed of cut between a 3 & a 4 is very small, and the finer teeth of the 4 leave a slightly nicer surface on the sharpening run. So when I ran out of 3s a couple of months ago, I decided to rationalise my file stock a little, & just switched to using 4s for the whole process...

    Cheers,
    IW

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bontz View Post
    Hi Rob,
    Do you not have trouble with the teeth breaking off of the file, literally? My 5xx grobets certainly do this. I am just trying to use them up at this point, as I had bought several boxes of them. I have the same problem with the 4xx as well. But not as many of those. As others have mentioned the only Grobets that seem to be worth a darn are the needle files. I am actually due to order a couple of boxes. So off to shopping I go. But at some point I will try the Bacho files. But I came across quite a few 6xx , 7x & 7xx NOS K&F files that work fairly well. ( Made in Brazil ) but still better than the others. AT $1.00 each I couldn't not take a chance on them. The quality control was obviously not the best. Once in a while I will get a bad one.
    Hi Ron,

    I try to use Nicholsons when I can get them, especially the old ones. The box of 5" XXS files I referred to above is of recent manufacture. The imprint is so small I can't tell the country of origin and the box didn't have any information as to origin on cursory inspection.
    So far none of the teeth on the first file I've used have come off. I am extra careful to avoid any looseness in my saw vises so that oscillation of the saw plate doesn't do damage to the file teeth. I often put a damper between the plate and one vise jaw to reduce singing.
    These new files seem to be a little less durable than are some of the older lots of Nicholsons I have but so far their sharpening performance is good, especially so considering that I paid $2.50/ea for a full new box. When the weather improves I'll post some pictures of the new and used files as well as the various labels and stamps on the box.

    Cheers,
    Rob
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

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