Thread: Isaac On Sawfiles

Originally Posted by hiroller

Of course once it was expected that all saw users (rather than saw makers) were responsible for the maintenance and sharpening of their own saws.
My father trained as a Shipwright in the mid 50s and was expected to sharpen his own tools, including saws. They had to make many of their own tools as part of the apprenticeship.
Unfortunately they also had to do jobs like spraying asbestos into ship engine rooms, so their aren't too many of his cohort left.

I suspect that most high-end saws made and sold these days see relatively little use in comparison to the hand saws of our forebears.

Terrible business with asbestos, I hope that you haven't been contaminated.

As I have read these post, I have found it most unfortunate that some would take such a negative outlook on anyone that uses a Saw punch, of any type. Speaking for myself, I can assure you I am quite capable of completely filing in saw teeth without a retoother. It simply saves me time and plenty of files. If some one wishes to "file in" the saw teeth, I see no problem with that either. The retoother I use is not that accurate and so I always have to reshape the teeth to some extent. Anything above about 16ppi has to be filed in anyway. Thank goodness some one still makes quality needle files! I just ordered another 2 boxes last night. About $300.00 USD, Poof gone. And that was one of my smaller orders. Only to become part of a collection of used files. (Perhaps I could donate them to some isolated aborigines tribe some where ( do they even exist at all? ) or to an isolated South American tribe to be used at the end of their arrows or darts to ward off destructive western loggers looking for slave labor.
Putting CNC machines aside, it seems to me in my small world of ignorance, that the issue is really a matter of perception and definition. We all have our opinions. Especially those of us that are older. Damn I hate getting old.
Add to that one persons fortune of having access to more advanced tooling and financial means as well as "Connections" and sour grapes may come into play. So we rationalize to justify our frustrations. I do not have much in the way of financial or political means. But if I should have any good fortune to be able to use a more advanced tooling to increase the accuracy and overall level of what ever I make. I will do so without hesitation. But will always be cognizant of a hand made feel and quality tool. Others may do as they choose. Who am I to judge?
Time to move on. If anyone is remotely interested, I am posting very crude videos on you tube. "Bontz Saw Works" I'll be posting some tedious videos on saw filing as well in the next couple of days. Just some of my thoughts. SO take it with a grain of salt.

Thanks for your thoughts Ron.
I found a great video posted by Wilbur Pan on a Japanese saw being made from lump of metal to shine blade. Jump to the 8:55 mark if you want to see how they shape the teeth!
https://vimeo.com/50114505

To get back on track, Japanese saw files seem to very high quality but the wrong shoe for western saws. I wonder if we could get Japanese file makers to make 3 square files?

Originally Posted by hiroller

I wonder if we could get Japanese file makers to make 3 square files?

Eez difficult, but I'm working on it (have a prototype of a parallel body file)

Add to that one persons fortune of having access to more advanced tooling and financial means as well as "Connections" and sour grapes may come into play.


Hi Ron. I can assure you that is far from the truth in my case.

regards Stewie;

http://www.dontyzack.care4free.net/files2.pdf

http://www.tyzack.net/Tempering.pdf

http://www.tyzack.net/Saws.pdf

Originally Posted by hiroller

Easy boys!
Its clear to me that Rob is interested in the science of saw making whereas Stewie is interested in the art of saw making. Neither is right or wrong and both have their place.

I'm somewhere in the middle. The question of how teeth are shaped and the use of files on saws has got me searching and I've found some interesting stuff.

I'm now pretty sure that files have never been used to shape saw teeth until the last 20 years or so. They have always been cut or punched. At the peak of western hand saw making in the late 1800s saw plates were being punched on both sides of the Atlantic. In large industrial complexes in the US and in small Sheffield workshops in the UK.
Andrew Lunn summarised it and explains why he says the use of a fly press is traditional here: http://eccentrictoolworks.com/2010/0...ing-saw-teeth/

You can find examples of Sheffield saw makers hard at work, including a fly press, in this 1861 magazine cover from picturessheffield.com:


Andrew Lunn also has a view of Moxon on saw making from 1700 that the saw plate was sold with the teeth cut but the filing of the saw was left to the owner.
http://eccentrictoolworks.com/2009/1...moxon-on-saws/

Hi fellow saw filers...

Andrew Lunn is a good friend of mine. We communicate from time to time on Facebook. It's good to see that his expertise regarding saw making is still being recognized and his writings are still being quoted. As some of you might know, he is finishing his writing of his book on making saws.

I have not given much thought to how Disston and other major saw makers created the teeth on their saws. When giving it a few minutes consideration, it only seems logical, based on the millions of saws they made that they would not have filed in the teeth by hand. Same for setting the teeth.

I don't have a tooth punching machine such as a Fly Press or Foley type toother. I have always filed them in by hand. Most of the retoothing I've done has been on backsaws. I shudder to even imagine filing new teeth into a saw plate with say, 4-1/2PPI, for example. But when doing it on a backsaw with 12PPI or smaller, it's pretty much routine for me. On the other hand, if I owned a retoother machine, I would surely use it. I'm a lazy kind of guy and will lean in the direction of doing it the easy and fastest way I can. I don't think in traditional terms. In fact, I will avoid tradition when possible or when it is more practical to suit my needs and or desires.

I can make a backsaw, and have done so, but I am not in the business of making backsaws. If I were in the business, I would be doing it in the most expedient way possible within my means. Tradition would play no part in how or what I would do as it would relate to methods of manufacture.

I haven't visited here for quite some time. No particular reason, I like this place and am glad to see you experienced saw makers/filers discussing a subject that I don't see enough of on other forums.

Hope to see you all again soon....

Catchalater,
Marv

Hey Ron, good ta see ya!

I'll be posting some tedious videos on saw filing as well in the next couple of days. Just some of my thoughts. SO take it with a grain of salt.

[/QUOTE]

I'm very interested and will be checking those Youtube video,s out. I have seen your others and you do a respectable job.

Catchalater,
Marv

Originally Posted by planemaker

Add to that one persons fortune of having access to more advanced tooling and financial means as well as "Connections" and sour grapes may come into play.


Hi Ron. I can assure you that is far from the truth in my case.

regards Stewie;

Hi Stewie,
I was referring more to myself and my lack of those things to take my saws to another level. In both production and design. Enough said about that.
Marv,
One of these days you will have to make me one of yours and I will make you one of mine. ( Let me get caught up first ) Just an FYI, I did mention your name in the sharpening/ filing video. I also briefly discussed the ACME filer I have sitting in my shop. Still don't use it. I still haven't seen much on Andrew's saws. I very much prefer to not be influenced by saws of others. I sometimes think he and I would get along quite well with our design thoughts and common back ground. Fire/ EMS. But who knows. Old guys like me don't get around much.

Hi Ron. I can assure you that I hold no ill feelings towards the methods you and and Isaac employ with your saw making work. It is the final presentation of the saw that is of any important relevance. I offer my apologies for any of the comments I raised on the use of retoothing machines. It was a lack of good judgement on my behalf.

regards Stewie;

A few thoughts

Originally Posted by Isaac S

I love the tangs on my needle files. They work great in the cast iron handles, but one of these days I'm going to make myself a deluxe handle out of some exotic wood and bronze specifically for those files.

Jewellers Suppliers sell plastic handles for needle files that more or less work, they are fiddly.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

If it's a Grobet or F.Dick or Vallorbe or Glardon needle file then it is made by Glardon in Switzerland, with whatever badge is required for that day. There are more than likely other brands that can be included here. In short, if it's a good quality needle file, with a round tang that has two knurlings on it, then it comes from Glardon. If it is any other kind of saw file then it is either:
1. made in Portugal by Tome Feteira and branded as Bahco
2. made in France by Liogier
3. Made in India China, Mexico, Honduras or Brazil. Possibly the Philippines (and that includes all Pferd files - Indian).
If it has a black printed logo etc - highly likely to be of Indian descent (especially if the printing is lousy). Note that's "descent" not "decent".
If the country is printed on it without the words "Made In" then it wasn't. Simply marketed from that country (if that).
In short... be suspicious

Bahco have their own factory in Portugal, in Vila do Conde. TOMÉ FÈTEIRA is in Vieira de Leiria, and makes much more than files; they are also owned by the Austrian company I. Braun Sohne File Company (brand Blu(-)dan).
Matthew of Workshop Heaven in the UK informed me that Bahco use Sandvik steel, Joel Moskowitz thought Bahco used Indian steel (which might be sourced through Sandvik of course).

Originally Posted by Ron Bontz

I came across quite a few 6xx , 7x & 7xx NOS K&F files that work fairly well. (Made in Brazil ) but still better than the others. AT $1.00 each I couldn't not take a chance on them. The quality control was obviously not the best. Once in a while I will get a bad one.

I have some of these as well, NOS made 20 years ago, the one I tried worked fine, perhaps the quality of off-shored production started off ok, after all they were selling against USA made files.

As for Bahco saw files and hardware shops, I tried a couple, they did not stock them, however Hardware & General at Dural are prepared to supply them – as single files, cost $13-14 per file, i.e. rrp; I did not raise the matter, but they might do a deal for volume, certainly helpful people. However I have more than adequate stocks of almost all files, so not a personal issue. When last in USA visiting sons I did stock up on NOS files, and when I figure out what my requirements are, I will offer excess for sale. I have very few 4” XX-Slim files unfortunately, really not enough for my use.

Prices (all below are Aus$) for Bahco, where product is available, are interesting…
Australia
KL Tools (online) saw files $13.17 to $14.30, Millsaw file 10” Bastard $18.25
Pacman indicated VEK charge $11 (in a box of 10), which represents around 15-20% discount for a box. THis is the best deal, at least for a group buy
BigRedToolBox, eBay out of UK, including postage $14.79 to $16.61 (limited range)
UK
Workshop Heaven $13.27 to $15.00 – excluding VAT, but + postage, priced higher than Australia, both pre- and post-tax
USA
Auto Tool World (as Pacman says, very inconsistent business performance judging by reviews, and perhaps more trouble than they are worth), no shipping to Australia $5.51 to $9.45, Millsaw 10” Bastard $7.11

Michael Merlo (azmica90405 on eBay) possesses, he says, tonnes of NOS saw files, and I have acquired some from him – very nice guy, and he ships to Australia (I did not need to use this service). Prices each, by the box, range from US$6 - $10, with free postage in US. His charges for postage to Australia are very reasonable, and you can get more than one box of files into a fixed rate box (small is 4 lbs, which is up to 5 boxes of 6” files, the 20lb box holds up to 25 boxes of files). What he sells though is limited in range. He certainly gets high prices for restored and sharpened saws.

Cheers
Peter

Your comment about jewelry tool suppliers reminded me of Otto Frei - expensive but great service and a nice range of needle files.

http://www.ottofrei.com/Three-Square/

Originally Posted by Heavansabove

Michael Merlo......His charges for postage to Australia are very reasonable, and you can get more than one box of files into a fixed rate box (small is 4 lbs, which is up to 5 boxes of 6” files, the 20lb box holds up to 25 boxes of files).

They could be sent to my Shipito address if anyone wanted to get some.

Originally Posted by Pac man

D.C, Google the supplier you mentioned for Bahco. Given his reviews and my experience I would encourage others to support individuals like Isaac.

FF, I got a quote from VEK on a box. Doesn't matter which size of saw file a box of 10 is $110

I missed this. I'm assuming DC was meant to be DW (me?).

I've never had an issue ordering from auto tool world. Whatever troubles they may have delivering other things, it hasn't been a problem with files. That said, the files actually come directly from williams tool in a matter of days (snap on to those of us here in the US). I don't think auto tool world does anything other than drop ship - as in they take the order and charge my card, and snap on sends me the files.

The only catch is because they're drop shipping (or williams tool is doing the shipping), you have to get them in boxes of 10. I can't see a reason to switch from someone / some business who has provided me good service at a good price.

I don't know Isaac, but I've seen enough good feedback to say that if someone told me they wanted less than a box in the US, I'd suggest they go to isaac for those files. If someone told me they wanted a lot of files, I'd point them to ATW. In the us, we have basically no risk if purchasing with a credit card.

It's a shame you can't get files as inexpensively as we can in the US, but that's just the breaks sometimes, I guess.

Drop shipping does have a cost advantage, but certainly if you don't like what you get, the retailer never had it in the first place and many of the drop shippers aren't set up to provide much customer service (which is probably why ATW has all of the negative feedback). You take that risk if you're like me and consider cost on consumables to be fairly important. But like I said, the risk has never stung me, either.