Thread: Isaac On Sawfiles

Originally Posted by planemaker

Hi Rob. Certain difficulties can arise when comparing all feedback on certain brands of saw files. Readers need to fully understand that the traditional technique of shaping and sharpening the saw teeth by hand, finding a file that has very good corner edge retention is of critical importance. Whereas, if you use a Foley machine or Fly Press to shape of the saw teeth, the demands placed upon the file are of a far less significant value. Its like comparing apples with oranges within importance.

regards Stewie;

Hi Stewie,

I agree, I was thinking of hardness testing a few of the files I have from different makers to probe the issue. Several files I've tested in the past have shown a range of HRC values but I think a more systematic study would be interesting.

Cheers,
Rob

Originally Posted by rob streeper

I agree, I was thinking of hardness testing a few of the files I have from different makers to probe the issue. Several files I've tested in the past have shown a range of HRC values but I think a more systematic study would be interesting.

That's very interesting, and would have been something I would have liked done on the saw files that were sent out for testing (and I still have all of them).

A question on that - the edges are the critical part of course, but can the edges be tested for hardness? I would have thought that the only area to make a punch mark would be on the face. Now that probably doesn't matter, as long as there is no hardness variation between the edge and the face. Can we assume that is the case?

Originally Posted by planemaker

Whereas, if you use a Foley machine or Fly Press to shape of the saw teeth, the demands placed upon the file are of a far less significant value. Its like comparing apples with oranges within importance.

Yes indeed Stewie - tis a pity they are almost non-existent in Oz (as far as I know)

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

That's very interesting, and would have been something I would have liked done on the saw files that were sent out for testing (and I still have all of them).

A question on that - the edges are the critical part of course, but can the edges be tested for hardness? I would have thought that the only area to make a punch make would be on the face. Now that probably doesn't matter, as long as there is no hardness variation between the edge and the face. Can we assume that is the case?

I think it'll work on the faces if I can align the test face perpendicular to the indenter using the v-block anvils. I'm pretty sure that I couldn't hit the edge, and even if I could I think that the amount of material supporting the test point is insufficient for HRC testing because of material flow/distortion, maybe it would work with HRN45.
As to the uniformity of hardness I think we're just guessing. My understanding is that files are made of W-1 tool steel or something similar. The edges, having a lower thermal mass, would be particularly susceptible to cooling rapidly on the trip from normalizing to quench.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Yes indeed Stewie - tis a pity they are almost non-existent in Oz (as far as I know)

Trust me, you don't want one - they're the quick path to dissipation, moral degeneration and sloth.

I just noticed that this is my 666th post here.

Hi Brett. I am forming a strong belief that the Vallorbe (Swiss manufactured) files are of a different and superior quality to those being labelled Grobet USA. (USA manufactured).

regards Stewie;

Originally Posted by rob streeper

The edges, having a lower thermal mass, would be particularly susceptible to cooling rapidly on the trip from normalizing to quench.

Yeah, that's what I was sorta getting at.....

Originally Posted by planemaker

Hi Brett. I am forming a strong belief that the Vallorbe (Swiss manufactured) files are of a different and superior quality to those being labelled Grobet USA. (USA manufactured).

regards Stewie;

Maybe you and Isaac could do a swapsie? Isaac could post to my Shipito address, as I have a package just about ready to ship.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Yes indeed Stewie - tis a pity they are almost non-existent in Oz (as far as I know)

Hi Brett. I have a strong personal preference for the traditional technique.

I do find it a bit misleading when I read the usual sales pitch "hand sharpened" , especially when the saw maker fails to mention the saw teeth were also punched out by a machine before hand.

Stewie;

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Maybe you and Isaac could do a swapsie? Isaac could post to my Shipito address, as I have a package just about ready to ship.

I'm up for that, but I'm not sure how any comparison would look since I am selling the Grobet needle files.

Originally Posted by planemaker

Hi Brett. I am forming a strong belief that the Vallorbe (Swiss manufactured) files are of a different and superior quality to those being labelled Grobet USA. (USA manufactured).

regards Stewie;

I'll try to get a good picture of the Grobet needle files in the next day or two. I don't think they are made here in the US. They have exactly the same "SWISS MADE" stamp that Brett showed in the picture below. They are also stamped Vallorbe.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Isaac I'd be interested to know what is punched in the tang, i.e. "Grobet Suisse" or "Swiss Made" etc, and whether or not the arrow is present.

Here is the F.Dick version that Glardon makes for them:

Brett, no pictures yet. For now, I can tell you what the stamp reads:

GROBET 2
VALLORBE
SWISS MADE

The 2 is the cut (coarseness). There is also an outline of the Grobet rabbit logo stamped next to the text. No arrow (isn't the arrow part of F. Dick's trademark or logo?). This is all stamped between two of the bands of knurling. Everything is stamped at an angle, just as shown in your picture.

Originally Posted by planemaker

Hi Brett. I have a strong personal preference for the traditional technique.

I do find it a bit misleading when I read the usual sales pitch "hand sharpened" , especially when the saw maker fails to mention the saw teeth were also punched out by a machine before hand.

Stewie;

If you're talking about teeth that were punched, then sharpened by hand, then I will hazard a guess and say that is the traditional technique.

Now, if by "hand sharpened" you meant filed on a Foley (or similar) machine, then I agree that is at least a bit misleading.

Originally Posted by Isaac S

I don't think they are made here in the US. Definitely not - there are no files of any type made in the USA now, as far as I can ascertain.
They have exactly the same "SWISS MADE" stamp that Brett showed in the picture below. They are also stamped Vallorbe.

Brett, no pictures yet. For now, I can tell you what the stamp reads:

GROBET 2
VALLORBE
SWISS MADE

The 2 is the cut (coarseness). There is also an outline of the Grobet rabbit logo stamped next to the text. No arrow (isn't the arrow part of F. Dick's trademark or logo?). This is all stamped between two of the bands of knurling. Everything is stamped at an angle, just as shown in your picture.

I just checked my Glardon #6 cut 140mm files that a Swiss colleague purchased direct from Glardon. They are stamped:
GLARDON
(fish symbol)
VALLORBE
SWISS MADE
6

So I think we have proved that Stewie's, Isaac's and my files all come from the same factory in Suisse (and Stewie's are probably stamped the same as mine). What remains to be determined is if there are any other differences between the edges, as Stewie suspects there is.

There is no arrow on it so as you say Isaac, that is probably an F.Dick thing.

Actually, I'd like to send Ian, Isaac and Stewie one of those #6 cut files for a try out. The idea is that they are used for a one-stroke finish only, after all the sharpening has been done, to get the smoothest possible surface. They are only short but at only one stroke per tooth for finishing they should do a good many saws I would think.

The same idea as finishing sharpening a chisel or plane blade with 6000 or 12000 (or whatever). Just to put the sharpest finish on the tooth because a sharper edge will stay sharp for longer, etc etc.

If it doesn't make an appreciable difference then that's the way it goes, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.......

Originally Posted by Isaac S

If you're talking about teeth that were punched, then sharpened by hand, then I will hazard a guess and say that is the traditional technique.

Now, if by "hand sharpened" you meant filed on a Foley (or similar) machine, then I agree that is at least a bit misleading.

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/factorytour.html