Thread: Saw makers ????

To state the obvious, the difference between a professional sawmaker and an amateur is that the former does it for a living, either in whole or part. "Production" and "Boutique" sawmakers are about the size of the operation. There may be many part-time boutique sawmakers around, and some do produce saws as good as, if not usually better than, the full-time pros. However the part-timers have that rare commodity that full-timers do not ... time.

Time changes everything. This is the bottom line. Material costs are the same for all sawmakers (unless you buy in bulk and obtain a discount ... but then we are moving from the boutique- to the production sawmaker).

Several years ago this topic was hotly debated on one of the US forums. It began after I posted a review of an Eccentric Tools saw, made by Andrew Lunn, then considered one of the top boutique sawmakers. At that time Andrew, was producing some of the best saws available, and at about $170, they were about 20% more expensive than his mentor, Mike Wenzloff. The review I wrote was about a carcase saw I purchased. A few months later, Andrew increased his price to $350. There was an outcry on the forums. My own opinion, which I voiced, was that the price was appropriate for the time involved in making a custom backsaw. All one had to do was compare the costs of a planemaker, such as Old Street, to recognise that sawmakers had long been lagging behind in regard to prices.

Andrew was building saws fulltime, having quit his job to do so. He had a long waiting list and believed that potential buyers would accept the new price. And they did so. No doubt many potential buyers opted to go elsewhere, somewhere cheaper, but he was still going strong when he quit sawmaking about 2 years later. By that stage he had burnt out. The fact is, he simply could not maintain the quality with the intensity demanded at his standard for a handmade saw that took no production short-cuts.

I suspect that the reason why custom saw prices generally stay low is that full-timers like Andrew cannot sustain the pace, and leave. Those that remain are part-timers who do not rely on high prices to sustain them (which is NOT saying that the first group prices are inflated). Guys like Mike Wenzloff, an old friend of mine, early on made the decision to remain competitive with a combination of production and hands-on construction, and accepted a lower selling price. His saws are simply the bargain of the century because of this. Other sawmakers, such any of those mentioned here (too many to name, and I am punching this on an iPad) are equally as capable. None that I know (do correct me) do this full time.

At the end of the day it comes down to cost of producing the saw. If you need a profit to live, then realistic costs drive the price up. With few exceptions, such as companies like LN and LV, where production methods can reduce the time element, the only other saws will likely come from part-timers.

Regards from Perth

Derek

One point that I don't think has been brought up yet ,
And please correct me if I'm wrong .
Is sourcing saw plate and a ready supply of slotted brass backs or going the folded back ?
.Or laminating a back ?
Tho I'm not sure how laminated backs would be received in the market place !!
The saw plate I think would be the hardest to obtain in small quantities ie not a one ton roll. In Australia
Talking to Dale who ran the saw making workshop in Melbourne that was one of the big hurtles to over come .
Tho it must be available some were .
Guys in the states seem to be able to obtain it.
The slotted brass backs and saw bolts could possibly be made by a hobby machinist in the small quantise needed.
Folded backs I'm not sure on that one .
But on a plus we do have some fantastic timbers to choose from for handles tote.
And I'm enjoying reading the response so far .

My responses to your questions would be:

The saw plate is not a huge problem as long as you want to buy substantial amounts. The actual amounts aren't very large if you are planning to make saws in batches of 50 or more, but a good deal more than an occasional saw maker would ever need! Dale did all the hard work of importing the stuff we used for the w'shop, so he's the lad to talk to about minimum quantities, & actual cost per foot, landed at your door. IIRC, it worked out at somewhere between 6 & 12$s a blade, depending on actual size & gauge. We were lucky in that we didn't incur any sales tax for the w'shop plate, but that would apply as soon as you started importing commercial quantities on a regular basis.

Folded backs are simply not a viable option for me - it's almost impossible to buy brass suitable for folding in this country, the only readily available stuff is 380, which is fine for machining, but far too brittle to fold. Bought by the 3.6M length, 3/4x 1/4" brass works out at around 6-8 $s per saw for raw material, before you work it into the finished spine. I neither have, nor have access to a brake, or anything suitable for folding backs, anyway. That leaves me pretty well stuck with slotting. The cost of some gear to do that was pretty minimal, the trade-off is that my system is primitive, and a right pita to set up. However, once set up, I can run off a dozen or so in a pretty short time. The product I get this way is vastly superior in terms of neatness & accuracy, compared with anything I could do by folding. As long as a spine id straight & fits firmly, it does the job equally well, as far as I can see. I'm sure laminating would be mechanically fine, & might look rather interesting if done well.

Making saw bolts & nuts on a centre lathe one at a time is easy but boring, and at a going rate of 4-5 $ per bolt, won't pay a big proportion of your grocery bills (DAMHIK!). Someone with the right gear could churn them out by the thousands for way less than that, but you'll need to do your shopping somewhere to the north of us & be prepared to make a minimum order of 5,000 to get that sort of price.

And yes, we are awash with interesting species for handles, but it is far from easy to get your hands on other than pitiful quantities of dry wood ready to use. You would need to to be very pro-active in building up your wood supply before you start advertising any saws. Making handles is the area where a bit of gear would definitely help! If you could get them roughed-out by machine the way the saw makers of old did, and only had to do the cleaning up & detailing by hand, it could speed that process up by a factor of 10 or more.....

Cheers,

Wow
Thanks Ian that was a fast response
Thank you for that.
Matt

I just had a friend do a quick search to find out how many people Search the net over a given period( not the sort off thing I would know how to do)
The period being one month
There were 3600 searches done for dovetail saws
And 1900 done for back saw
In Australia only apparently
Bottom off the page

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1428408083.812520.jpg

Originally Posted by Simplicity

One point that I don't think has been brought up yet ,
And please correct me if I'm wrong .
Is sourcing saw plate and a ready supply of slotted brass backs or going the folded back ?
.Or laminating a back ?
Tho I'm not sure how laminated backs would be received in the market place !!
The saw plate I think would be the hardest to obtain in small quantities ie not a one ton roll. In Australia
Talking to Dale who ran the saw making workshop in Melbourne that was one of the big hurtles to over come .
Tho it must be available some were .
Guys in the states seem to be able to obtain it.
The slotted brass backs and saw bolts could possibly be made by a hobby machinist in the small quantise needed.
Folded backs I'm not sure on that one .
But on a plus we do have some fantastic timbers to choose from for handles tote.
And I'm enjoying reading the response so far .

Hi Matt,

I fold my saw backs and sourcing raw material has proven to be no problem, even in relatively small quantities, from Online Metals (http://www.onlinemetals.com/). They have a great customer service department too.

Saw plate was formerly more of a problem but now Zoro Tools (http://www.zoro.com/) is carrying 1095 steel in all of the sizes needed and their customer service is also great. 1095 steel in rolls and sheets regularly shows up on eBay too.

Screws are somewhat more difficult. You can buy from one of the custom saw makers or use the 'adequate' dome head screws from Amazon, use Chicago screws, sex bolts (yes, that's what they're called), barrel bolts, binding bolts or binding posts (all available from Zoro) or you can roll your own.
Manufactured screws are expensive. For a 1000 piece lot of small (7/16") screws in 360 brass with split nuts the delivered price is $3.940/ea. with the nut being the more expensive component at $1.833/ea. Larger fittings are of course more expensive. This price is still a bargain compared to some specialized fasteners that are commercially available. Zoro for instance sells an architectural sex bolt set for $39.71 (http://www.zoro.com/g/Architectural%...Bolt/00167721/). Thus a $6 to $8 retail price for saw bolt with nut is not unrealistic considering that the seller has a significant investment in a large lot of very specialized, practically single use, hardware.

Cheers,
Rob

Hi Derek,
I only wish to disagree on one point. The time factor. As a "part time" saw maker, time is exactly what I do not have. After a 53 to 56 hour week at the fire house I then have to come home and, of course make saws. While I am certainly no threat to other saw makers with respect to volume/market share, I do stay quite busy to the point I have had to suspend taking orders once to avoid having a lead time of greater than 8 months. I personally don't want anyone to have to wait that long for a saw. So I rarely have the available time to spend tracking down vendors that I may be able to out source parts to. Or to develop other tools floating around in the back of my mind. Folded backs being one. I have no doubt if I were retired I would have the time to do so with more fervor to accomplish various task. ( The key word here is "retired" not unemployed ) Then of course the financial aspect of life would certainly come to be an issue in every day life. I could elaborate on other issues brought up. But that would take too long to discuss and I am a slow typist. I do, as always, enjoy reading the various thoughts of others. Thank you for posting.

Just one last thought about something that doesn't seem to have been mentioned in the discussion so far:

What a boutique maker can offer over anything factory-produced, is saws made exactly to a customers specifications. If you make saws one at a time, it's no difference what tooth size, particular rake or fleam angle, varied pitch, spine weight, or whatever, is specified. These take little or no extra time to do. Hand toothing allows varied pitch & rake or requested "non-standard" rake angles to be included with virtually no change in the time it takes. That part of the operation isn't as difficult or as time-consuming as you might think - with a bit of practice (& a decent file! #!*! ) toothing & setting a 10-12" backsaw can take me 1/2 hour or less (still a lot longer than having a machine do most of the work for you, of course!).

Same thinking applies to handles - makes no difference to give a customer a particular grip style, hang angle or size to suit their fist, when you make them one at a time - what you get from the factories is a pretty boring, one-size-fits-all product, even if it is fiddleback.

Factories operating to tight profit margins can only do a limited amount of customising...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Ron Bontz

Hi Derek,
I only wish to disagree on one point. The time factor. As a "part time" saw maker, time is exactly what I do not have. After a 53 to 56 hour week at the fire house I then have to come home and, of course make saws. While I am certainly no threat to other saw makers with respect to volume/market share, I do stay quite busy to the point I have had to suspend taking orders once to avoid having a lead time of greater than 8 months. I personally don't want anyone to have to wait that long for a saw. So I rarely have the available time to spend tracking down vendors that I may be able to out source parts to. Or to develop other tools floating around in the back of my mind. Folded backs being one. I have no doubt if I were retired I would have the time to do so with more fervor to accomplish various task. ( The key word here is "retired" not unemployed ) Then of course the financial aspect of life would certainly come to be an issue in every day life. I could elaborate on other issues brought up. But that would take too long to discuss and I am a slow typist. I do, as always, enjoy reading the various thoughts of others. Thank you for posting.

Hi Ron

I would argue that the experience of time for a full-time sawmakers is different to that experienced by a part-time sawmakers, such as yourself. While you describe a sense of urgency to get the saw completed and to the new owner, if you miss a day or two of sawmaking (perhaps because you are ill or just want a day off), it will not hurt your income/pocket, only your pride. The pressure to work to a schedule is different, even though the work ethic may be the same.

You make very fine working saws, from what I have read. And from what I have seen of them on the forums, they are beautifully detailed at the highest level. Your work is distinctive and easily identifiable as a "Bonz" saw. That you can do this all in such a little free time is nothing short of amazing!

I believe that the saws we now have access to far surpasses those of a hundred or so years ago. We indeed live in an age of wonderous handtools.

Regads from Perth

Derek

Derek

You are spot on in regard to the quality of tools (saws) available today .
Just the materials alone is amazing ,compared to the past A1 A2 steels 1095 saw plate extra
.Do we take it all for granted tho ??
But I won't mention modern files ,that's a whole new depressing post for another day .

Cheers Matt

The introduction of hardened teeth has changed things, and some users claim that as a result, saw sharpening has become somewhat of a lost art.

I've found that induction hardened teeth tend to break if the saw bearing them is used on anything harder than yellow/white pine or the new abomination known as 'whitewood'.

The future viability of many smaller boutique saw makers continues to remain uncertain.

There are many factors involved. Including:

The ongoing pressure from larger saw making entities who are able to continually trim their costs through higher volumes of sale and quicker production methods.

The ongoing popularity of low cost, no maintenance, hardened teeth hand saws.

The lack of saw sharpening services available.

The difficulty in purchasing high quality saw sharpening files.

The lack of motivation by many weekend woodworkers to accept the challenge of learning how to resharpen their handsaws.

It should also be noted that the ongoing popularity of the woodworking hand tool market is still reliant on those predominantly born prior to 1960. As their participation reduces over the next 10 years, will the younger generation of woodworkers step up to the plate and share a similar commitment to the use of hand tools. !!!