Thread: Melbourne, Backsaw Making Workshop

Originally Posted by Groggy

Ok, I have watched the video and now I have a question for the brains trust. I noted he said to measure the thickness of the saw plate then allow 20% for the set (or more for softwood). He then went on to explain the numbers on the saw sets themselves really mean nothing; so - how do you know whether you are setting 10%, 20, 30 or 50%? It is quite difficult to measure, unless I am missing something - anyone? Also, is that 20% 10% each side or 20% each side (I have assumed 10% each side).

Second question - steel quality: I mentioned in an earlier post that I was doing up an old saw for a young child to use. I have found that after a complete refile of the teeth they are quite brittle and 4 or 5 actually broke off during setting. Ideas? I am wondering whether I should visit the linisher and grind back to start over or maybe the steel is no good. Perhaps I am setting too much angle? (though I doubt this, minimum set is being used and not a lot of pressure either). The steel was rusty and a bit pitted but I have cleaned it up fairly well.

This link may be of benefit to you Groggy.

The How's of Setting Saws

I believe that a group buy on small items like saw nuts will be of marginal value.
Mailing a pack of saw nuts from the US will about $12-13 USD.
By the time you split them up and mail them locally around Australia you will be back to break even.
So it may be worth it for a few co-located forumites to save 2 or 3 dollars - but you could easily spend more in fuel driving across town to pick them up. Then there is the small gift for the organiser to thank them for arranging it for you.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

Technically the forum isn't allowed to do group buys anymore from what I hear, so maybe one of the MODS can chip in here as to wether or not a bulk purchase of saw nuts would be allowed.

What was the Backsaw making workshop if it wasn't a group buy?

We paid our money and Dale bought the components on our behalf.

Looks like a group buy to me ...

Cheers

Doug

Originally Posted by doug3030

What was the Backsaw making workshop if it wasn't a group buy?

We paid our money and Dale bought the components on our behalf.

Looks like a group buy to me ...

Cheers

Doug

Hi Doug. If you want to stir the pot. Do it the right way and deal with it through the mods via pm, not as a forum post. Some of us are working really hard to develop a high participation into saw making through this forum, and regardless of what may have been occurred in the past, the administrators have the right to rule this site as they see fit. Just my 2c worth.

Stewie;

Originally Posted by doug3030

What was the Backsaw making workshop if it wasn't a group buy?

We paid our money and Dale bought the components on our behalf.

Looks like a group buy to me ...

Cheers

Doug

No it wasn't a group buy as I bought and paid for all the materials upfront out of my own pocket (Well Technically I had to get a loan). I took all the financial risk of not getting my money back, which I was very worried wasn't going to happen. Also it was a WORKSHOP so the materials were a means to a learning experience which was the point to knowledge share. There was also venue hire, insurance and class notes, etc provided in that cost. Also there was a lot of volunteer time and effort by many parties coming together to make it possible.

I think there is a big distinction as opposed to preordering and prepaying for off the shelf items to a forumite with the intention of getting a volume discount before placing an order with a manufacturer/supplier, which works in the opposite direction.


If that looks like a group buy to you then sadly I think you weren't there in the true spirit of the event.

Originally Posted by planemaker

Hi Doug. If you want to stir the pot. Do it the right way and deal with it through the mods via pm, not as a forum post.

Stewie, I take exception to your accusations that I am trying to stir the pot. The intent of my post was to point out that in running the workshop we were actually running a group buy that was sanctioned by the forum owner and administrators. I was trying to assist in building a case to permit this to continue.

Why don't you pull your suspicious head in instead of trying to make my post appear to be something that it is not, and in doing so jeopardize the work everyone else is doing?

I was trying to reinforce a case that what was going on to run the Backsaw workshop was a good thing, and to be encouraged. How was your post helpful with doing anything constructive?

Cheers

Doug

Originally Posted by planemaker

This link may be of benefit to you Groggy.

The How's of Setting Saws

Great read, thank you!

Originally Posted by doug3030

Stewie, I take exception to your accusations that I am trying to stir the pot. The intent of my post was to point out that in running the workshop we were actually running a group buy that was sanctioned by the forum owner and administrators. I was trying to assist in building a case to permit this to continue.

Why don't you pull your suspicious head in instead of trying to make my post appear to be something that it is not, and in doing so jeopardize the work everyone else is doing?

I was trying to reinforce a case that what was going on to run the Backsaw workshop was a good thing, and to be encouraged. How was your post helpful with doing anything constructive?

Cheers

Doug

Doug,

If that was you intention I think your wording may not have been the best. This post reads very different to the previous to me.

Originally Posted by Groggy

Great read, thank you!

Good to hear Groggy.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

Doug,

If that was you intention I think your wording may not have been the best. This post reads very different to the previous to me.

Then I am sorry that you misinterpreted it Dale. Look back at the posts referring to a group buy and how everyone was saying that the forum did not permit it.

All I was saying was that all of those who participated were in fact part of an event which was in part a group buy and the forum management were happy with it. Why not continue post-event with other things to assist us to develop the skills we had learned? Look at this thread. The workshop is far from over!

If something can be interpreted two ways, why go with the one that looks the worst? I am glad I don't live my life that way.

I think some apologies should be forthcoming.

Doug

Originally Posted by Groggy

Ok, I have watched the video and now I have a question for the brains trust. I noted he said to measure the thickness of the saw plate then allow 20% for the set (or more for softwood). He then went on to explain the numbers on the saw sets themselves really mean nothing; so - how do you know whether you are setting 10%, 20, 30 or 50%? It is quite difficult to measure, unless I am missing something - anyone? Also, is that 20% 10% each side or 20% each side (I have assumed 10% each side).

Second question - steel quality: I mentioned in an earlier post that I was doing up an old saw for a young child to use. I have found that after a complete refile of the teeth they are quite brittle and 4 or 5 actually broke off during setting. Ideas? I am wondering whether I should visit the linisher and grind back to start over or maybe the steel is no good. Perhaps I am setting too much angle? (though I doubt this, minimum set is being used and not a lot of pressure either). The steel was rusty and a bit pitted but I have cleaned it up fairly well.

+1 for pretty much what Ian has already said, the ideal amount of set depends a lot on what you are doing, the type of timber etc.. for fine toothed dovetail saws you only want a couple of thou so that you get a nice fine kerf, if you are cutting deep into green timber you'll want a lot more set and less tpi. My rule of thumb is to use the absolute minimum of set. and keep it as even as possible. You can always do the paper and vise trick to even the set. If you don't have a smooth jawed vise, you could use a couple of pieces of heavy steel.

Brittle teeth is another matter all together, it's a long debated topic about old saws having brittle teeth.. and some older saws seem to snap teeth like crazy. I've heard theories from hydrogen embrittlement, to work hardening, etc.. and all sorts, but the bottom line is just take it easy and don't over do it. If you break one or two teeth, don't worry too much it won't affect the way the saw cuts, and they will grow back over time as it's rejointed, if it's missing more than just one or two, I'd probably re-joint it

Also, look closely at the gullets for cracking.. if the gullets are cracked, it might pay to re-joint past the cracks and cut new teeth.. depends a bit on the saw, and how keen you are.


Regards
Ray

PS There have been organized group buys for saw nuts, slit brass and saw plate in the past, so there must be some still out there hiding in the back of the workshop gathering dust on someone's shelf..
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/g...wmakers-87427/
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/g...it-nuts-87503/
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/s...-makers-87440/

I've had good luck measuring set with a micrometer. It doesn't work for large teeth, but for teeth down to about 11 ppi it works well.

I measure by placing at least three teeth between the jaws, then use a light touch to take the measurement. It is very easy to apply too much force to the micrometers and spring the teeth shut.

I usually aim for about 10-15 thousands of set. I then joint and resharpen (for a few reasons, I always joint and sharpen after setting). That always eats up a few thousandths of the set. Then I run a diamond stone once or twice along each side of the teeth to take off burrs and knock down any teeth that are a little too proud. That usually eats up another thousandth or two.

Then I make a few test cuts to the full depth of the blade. I don't try to saw to a line, but just try to let the saw cut where it wants to go. If there is any tendency for the saw to drift to one side or the other, I stone that side one or two passes at a time until it runs true.

Finally, once the saw is running true, I will stone each side evenly to bring it down to the final desired set. This amount varies depending on how deep the blade is, how smooth you want the cut, the types of wood it will see, and a few other things. As a general rule of thumb, the 15-30% of the thickness of the saw blade is pretty good. This is for joinery saws used in dry woods. Handsaws or those used in wet or construction woods will generally benefit from more set.

I've done a few saws with no set, and they leave a finish on the wood that is like glass. In general, though, they don't seem to work well for long. As soon as they show the slightest amount of dulling, they start to bind. This is for untapered blades; tapered blades are a different matter.

I have found that about 0.002-0.003" of set is the practical minimum. It can leave a very good surface, and generally has no problem with binding. There is not a lot of room to correct an errant cut, but if you get it started right, it practically steers itself.

All of the measurements above are in inches, for which I apologize. I forgot the venue, and don't have time to go back and convert everything. Big meal to cook and eat today...

Originally Posted by RayG

+1 for pretty much what Ian has already said, the ideal amount of set depends a lot on what you are doing, the type of timber etc.. for fine toothed dovetail saws you only want a couple of thou so that you get a nice fine kerf, if you are cutting deep into green timber you'll want a lot more set and less tpi. My rule of thumb is to use the absolute minimum of set. and keep it as even as possible. You can always do the paper and vise trick to even the set. If you don't have a smooth jawed vise, you could use a couple of pieces of heavy steel.

Brittle teeth is another matter all together, it's a long debated topic about old saws having brittle teeth.. and some older saws seem to snap teeth like crazy. I've heard theories from hydrogen embrittlement, to work hardening, etc.. and all sorts, but the bottom line is just take it easy and don't over do it. If you break one or two teeth, don't worry too much it won't affect the way the saw cuts, and they will grow back over time as it's rejointed, if it's missing more than just one or two, I'd probably re-joint it

Also, look closely at the gullets for cracking.. if the gullets are cracked, it might pay to re-joint past the cracks and cut new teeth.. depends a bit on the saw, and how keen you are.


Regards
Ray

PS There have been organized group buys for saw nuts, slit brass and saw plate in the past, so there must be some still out there hiding in the back of the workshop gathering dust on someone's shelf..

Hi guys...

MarvW here. I'm fairly new here in your forum, so please be patient with my not being up on the curve as far as what has already been posted regarding this particular thread. It's a bit long in the tooth as we say here on the best coast of California.

Just wanted to add to what Groggy is concerned about regarding setting his teeth. If it's already been covered, forgive my repeating it....in no way do I want or intend to contradict or be argumentative. It is obvious from reading some of the posts that this forum is lucky to have so much saw filing knowledge and good advice available and freely offered by many skillful saw filers.

You guys have covered pretty much everything in these most recent posts, however allow me to toss this in just for kicks... You experienced filers no doubt are aware of the huge differences between various saw sets, but someone like Groggy might not be aware that the anvil and hammer on say, a Somax versus a Stanley 42X will bend the tooth at much different angles and will bend the tooth at a different distance down from the point of the tooth. The Somax having an angle of about 23° compared to the Stanley 42X having a 15° angle will bend the tooth higher up on the tooth. If the saw plate happens to be a bit harder than another, the Somax will have more of a tendency to break a tooth. My preference is to bend the tooth farther down, about 2/3rds of the height of the tooth or as much as 3/4 down from the tip. This places the bend down where the tooth is wider and less apt to break. The 15° anvil on the 42X will place the bend lower. In my opinion, the lower the bend location, the better, without making the bend at the gullet. After using several different plier type saw sets, I find that the 42X is the safest when it comes to breaking teeth. It has what I would call hash marks on the side of the anvil that is adjustable up and down. It does not have numbers that are basically only for reference.

It's been mentioned to set the teeth at a minimum, only two or three thousands per side on a dovetail saw. A dovetail cut is usually only about 3/4" deep, so there is no need for much set, just enough to prevent the saw from binding and to be able to guide the cut along a scribe or pencil line. Beginner saw filers tend to over-set the teeth, not realizing how much the saw set is capable of bending the teeth, even when it is adjusted close to it's minimum setting. With the 42X you need to start very close to it's lowest setting. When you are setting the teeth, you can barely feel that you are bending the tooth, especially on a saw with say, 14PPI for example. It's even less noticeable when you are attempting to add just a little more set such as only one thousand per side.

Even though setting the teeth is seemingly a simple step in the over-all process of tuning up a saw, in my mind, I consider it equally important to filing the teeth consistently. As you go from tooth to tooth, be aware of squeezing the handles of the saw set the same amount on each tooth. Make sure the saw plate is free of any debris and that goes for the anvil and hammer on the saw set itself.

You will hear about methods used to reduce the set if by chance you over-set, by hammering the teeth with the saw laying on a metal surface. This makes me shudder. When we are concerned about only two or three thousands per side, banging on the teeth with a hammer gives you virtually zero control from one tooth to the next or how many teeth are are you hitting at one time. Clamping the teeth in a vise to reduce the over-setting gives you better control, but you don't want to use just any bench vise. It should be one with smooth jaws and for best results, use a milling machine vise because it requires tons of force to bend 4 or 5 inches of teeth all at the same time. When I over-set the teeth, I reduce the set by making a couple more passes of filing the teeth. This way, I have better control. I always do a light side jointing with the saw plate laying on a flat surface. It should only take one or two swipes with a slip stone to get all the tips of the teeth even and to remove any burrs that might be left from filing.

When your saw is filed and set and your test cuts produce the results you want, get in the habit of holding the saw in the light and tilting it so you can sight down from the back or top edge of the blade and see how much two or three thousands actually looks like. Do this on both sides of the saw. The teeth should protrude the same amount. If you do this every time you file a saw, you will get so you can see right away if there is too much set or not enough. You will get so you can just look at a saw and predict how it will cut.

Sorry to ramble on so much, but sometimes it just takes a lot of words to get it said. Not that I think I know every thing about filing saws, because even after filing hundreds and hundreds of saws, I'm still learning. So much of what I'm passing on and sharing here, I've learned from someone else plus a small percentage from experience.

Good luck with your saw filing and setting Groggy, and please report back how you are doing.

Marv

Excellent advise Marv & Isaac on setting. Thank you for your input to the discussion.

Stewie;