Thread: Melbourne, Backsaw Making Workshop

Thanks for the advice in response to my questions, I used a Somax blue saw set and was quite surprised to feel the teeth crumble and give way. What I have decided to do is give the saw to the young lad "as is" and have advised his father to let him use it for a while (the lad is 5-6 years old) then bring it back so I can re-joint and re-file it. I suspect that once he gets through the initial learning it will need re-jointing anyway.

Reading the recent posts I am left wondering whether these nuts of ours are going into a saw or a vise!

Hi All,

Just a notice of intent, I'll be ordering some 3/4 x 1/4 brass stock from George White next week, and after I get it slit, ( allow a week or two) I'll be passing it on to Dale for distribution to who ever wants it, at cost.

This is not a group purchase, and I'm not making anything out of it, it's a "pay it forward" good will gesture to budding sawmakers.

Meantime, contact Dale off forum or PM for further details.

Regards
Ray

Wow ... there's some serious saw-guys on this forum now

Greetings MarvW great to have you over here. Marv is well lost down the handsaw rabbit-hole methinks.

One little thing that I might add. I have heard in all sorts of examples over the years of the experienced woodwork guys explaining certain ways that they can eyeball or estimate the way something should be ... or if it's the right size.

You might try holding your saws and/or backsaws teeth upwards and, with thumb and first two fingers held lightly together, drawing along the toothline from handle to tip (not on a japanese saw!) to feel the width of the set. Without any numbers involved - and I'm no expert - I believe you can start to develop a mental association between the feel of the set and the kerf you will expect to produce ... after a while.

You can maybe even get a feel for the consistency of set ... although I haven't particularly paid attention to it in that way before now.


One thing that someone might weigh in on ... and this is more handsaw than backsaw ... the width of the plate along the toothline is not necessarily constant on old handsaws. It may have started at say a constant 40thou ... but because of the taper, the topline might run from 30thou to 40 ... and as the saw gets sharpened, the toothline migrates into the tapered zone.

So if all the teeth are set 'evenly' then the saw will still be a wedge-shape along the toothline and I think that is part of what stops a saw running back and forth super smoothly ... even stopping at 70% of the stroke. You would think them that more set was needed where the plate was thinner.

Cheers,
Paul

Originally Posted by fields

Hi Guys,

Just want to say all the saws look excellent, I'm sure all had a fun time getting together to make them.

Are there any plans to hold workshops in other states for those who have no idea where to begin?

You are in Brisbane, suggest you have a chat with Ian. There must be a number of keen intending saw makers in the North.

In Sydney, TTTG conducts a strong workshop programme, and this looks to be a pretty good candidate. Getting the materials together might be an issue... and the 2014 programme is already settled. Any Sydney locals interested might drop me a PM.

Any developments WILL be signaled on the forum.

Cheers
Peter

Originally Posted by fields

...Are there any plans to hold workshops in other states for those who have no idea where to begin?.....

Hi fields, for some reason we Brisbanites are not as pro-active as our southern bretheren. We have no chapter of the HTPAA here, and I am not a member of any club at present (the only active woodie groups are situated a cut-lunch & full water-bottle away from where I live). There are men's sheds nearby, but I'm not keen on exclusive groups - there may well be women who are interested in making saws! I have done a couple of saw-making demos for interested people in my shed, but nothing on the scale of the w'shop in Melbourne. If there was enough interest up here, perhaps we could organise something in the new year. Another possibility might be to do something at the TWWW show in May, through one of the clubs.

How many S.E. Qld. people would be interested in a day or a weekend of saw making?

Cheers,

Glad to see this has spurred some interest in other states.

As I told Peter I am happy to assist in any way I can, same goes for you Ian. Should I be ordering some more rolls of saw plate to be delivered to you guys




In regards to the enquiries I have had for saw plate and brass backs, I have been writing down the names and requests in order and we might be almost booked up for the remainder I won't know until it is cut. Ray posted he will be slitting more brass. As yet I haven't had a chance to discuss this with him in terms of time frame or cost and I will get back to everyone once I know what is happening and can give out the prices.

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Wow ... there's some serious saw-guys on this forum now

Greetings MarvW great to have you over here. Marv is well lost down the handsaw rabbit-hole methinks.

One little thing that I might add. I have heard in all sorts of examples over the years of the experienced woodwork guys explaining certain ways that they can eyeball or estimate the way something should be ... or if it's the right size.

You might try holding your saws and/or backsaws teeth upwards and, with thumb and first two fingers held lightly together, drawing along the toothline from handle to tip (not on a japanese saw!) to feel the width of the set. Without any numbers involved - and I'm no expert - I believe you can start to develop a mental association between the feel of the set and the kerf you will expect to produce ... after a while.

You can maybe even get a feel for the consistency of set ... although I haven't particularly paid attention to it in that way before now.


One thing that someone might weigh in on ... and this is more handsaw than backsaw ... the width of the plate along the toothline is not necessarily constant on old handsaws. It may have started at say a constant 40thou ... but because of the taper, the topline might run from 30thou to 40 ... and as the saw gets sharpened, the toothline migrates into the tapered zone.

So if all the teeth are set 'evenly' then the saw will still be a wedge-shape along the toothline and I think that is part of what stops a saw running back and forth super smoothly ... even stopping at 70% of the stroke. You would think them that more set was needed where the plate was thinner.

Cheers,
Paul

Hello Paul...

Yes, I've been down in this rabbit hole for some time now..... it's an interesting place....always something new popping up...

The question you raise regarding the taper from toe to heel on a handsaw is an interesting one and warrants some pondering. I have in fact pondered that particular concern.... ponderings so far has produced these thoughts, but by no means any definite conclusions. So, in theory plus a little logic, let me offer this.... I use a Stanley 42X saw set. This saw set has a plunger that presses the saw plate against the anvil, then the hammer moves forward and bends the tooth to match the angle of the anvil. The saw set will bend the tooth the same amount each side of the saw plate regardless of the thickness of the plate as it becomes thicker from toe to heel. So, you are right about the measurement across the combined distance of the teeth and the plate being less at the toe compared to the heel.

Most of the work that a handsaw does will take place about 3/4 or less in the center area of the length of the tooth edge. Not all saws are tapered the same amount from toe to heel, so the difference that the taper changes in that 3/4 work area will not always be the same from saw to saw. If you were to measure across the teeth in that work area at each end of that area, the difference is going to measure in only a few thousands. Adding more set won't change the difference in width but will change the width of the kerf.

In theory, the difference with most saws isn't enough to cause a problem with causing the saw to bind or stop toward the heel end. However, I have run across a few saws that will do that even when setting the teeth beyond what is needed to prevent binding. One method to reduce this anomaly, is to joint the sides of the teeth a little more from about the center of the tooth edge toward the heel.

Another thought regarding the small amount of difference of set width in the work area of the tooth edge effecting how the saw performs, is the increased thrust we automatically add as we push a saw forward. I have a nice little 18" Disston No.12 with 12PPI that is hesitating just before I make a full forward stroke. Because the plate is short, the amount of thrust is not as much as with say a 26" plate and the plate on this No.12 is also thinner compared to most longer plates. The shorter plate and the fact that it is thinner, causes me to not be as aggressive with it. I find that each saw seems to have it's own personality and you need to become friends with it and get to know it's various little quirks. Sort of like a house cat. There's a lot of other aspects of an individual saw that causes it to perform differently, but lets not get into all of that when discussing the issue at hand. That might require a book in order to cover everything.

The other thing you bring up about sliding your fingers along the sides of the set teeth and developing a feel for what a certain amount of set feels like is a very valid thing to do. I tend to do it with each saw I pick up. Thanks for adding that, I should have included that habit along with tilting a saw in the light and sighting down from the top edge. It's a matter of using a very light touch as you slide your fingers from toe to heel. I don't depend heavily on these touchy-feelly techniques though. Final measures are done using a vernier caliper and micrometer.

Catchalater,
Marv

Thought I would try something different today with regard to saw bolts .
Tork screws m6 both sides screwed in to 8 mm spacer tube .
Does it work ,time will tell .
It's just an idea ,but thought I would give it a go ,total cost 1 hour of time plus $1.50au for the bolts.
I would love to hear feed back from those in the know.

Hi Matt. An interesting idea. To be honest its difficult to make a decision on the the photo's you have posted. Suggest you need to tidy up the look by flat sanding the handle faces to give the screws a flush surface. After you have done that a couple of wider photo's so its easier gauge the overall look. My gut feel now is to stick with the traditional style saw bolts for a much more authentic look. If down the track you look at getting saw bolts form TFWW I have some pilot/counterbores for sale that would suit these. Their saw bolts have a 1/2" dia face, 3/16 dia stem , and an overall length of 7/8". Give some thought to the direction you want to go.

Stewie;

Hey Matt, Nice saw.

If they are users and they do the job then go for it.
If its a gift then the bass ends do look nicer.
But it's a saw, it cuts timber, If it holds the handle on then that's all that matters.

I myself cannot justify 13 bucks for a pair of nuts and 13 bucks postage.
Plain old brass chicago bolts will do me at $1 or less each. Still brass, same shaft size and can be removed.

These are a little thin 10pcs Leather Craft Belt Solid Copper Buckle Nail Rivets Brass Chicago Screws | eBay
But these are fine: Chicago Screw Studs 20mm 2 Colors CS 20 | eBay

Or troll junk shops and buy old saws and take the nuts of those, I usually get them for about 5 bucks a saw.

So whatever holds that handle on is cool with me.

Peter

Hi Stewie ,
Your right the saw needs a bit more work .
I was a bit ahead of my self posting pics ,
Overall I like the concept .
Yes it needs some fine tuning tho.
My main problem with the traditional, is that one side looks neat and tidy the other side you have a slot .

It just docent seem balanced in my option.

Thanks Peter
I keep that in mind

Simplicity, I like where you're going there. As said above, it could be refined a bit, but it's a creative idea and I think it looks pretty good so far.

These are not overly costly especially if you purchase a reasonable amount. Another thought bubble to consider.

Thomas Flinn & Co. Saw Screws & Caps

http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Saw_Nut.html