Thread: Melbourne, Backsaw Making Workshop

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Pac Man and NCA - do youse snore in upper or lower case Zeds? (please don't say upper and bold). Should we share a car (might be a gentler introduction to the Zeds)?

Brett, my snoring has never bothered me so I don't see why it should bother anyone else.
I have relies in Melbourne so I would be freeloading off them. But we can discuss cars a bit closer to the date.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

Sounds like you have a great family!!

They have their moments!!

It fluctuates between huge and unreasonable demands on my time to the rare occasion like this where they are insisting that I go out and do something for ME.

Its a bit hard to explain but my life has taken a few interesting paths that has resulted in a rather large "extended family" wherein we all accept each other unconditionally and because fate has decreed that I am at the pinnacle of this conglomeration I have to cover all the shortfallings of everyone else, be it emotional, financial or just the inability of others to obtain and retain a drivers license so I dont have to take them anywhere. But occasionally, just occasionally a whole big chunk of consideration comes back my way which makes it all worthwhile, and that is what is happening here now.

I will take full advantage of it! Looking forward to the workshop!

Cheers

Doug

I would defiantly like to attend.
Just depends on work.
Being self employed it comes first (

Originally we were going to have one saw design for the whole group so everyone makes the same but since I am getting several rolls of saw plate and the difference between the plates is only dollars and cents.

It has been suggested that we offer the option of three saws:

• 9" @0.015" thin kerf dovetail
• 9" @0.02" dovetail
• 10" @0.025" Carcass saw

The question I would like to put to you is which saw would you most likely want to make and would you want to buy a take home kit for an additional saw type, or both kits to make a set of three? Assuming a kit works out to say $50 timber is not included. This allows you to customise the kit to your own liking.

Only reason I ask is that we need to make sure we will have enough brass backs and split nuts, the plate shouldn't be an issue.

** Note we my not be able to get the qty of brassware for extra kits so it is only a suggestion at this stage.


If we do proceed with the kits and options then when you register we will get you to nominate which you want.




Saw to make in Class

• 9" @0.015" thin kerf dovetail
• 9" @0.02" dovetail
• 10" @0.025" Carcass saw

Additional Kit/s

• 9" @0.015" thin kerf dovetail
• 9" @0.02" dovetail
• 10" @0.025" Carcass saw

Assuming that Ray and Ian will be preparing the brass, I'd be inclined to keep it to 2 saws max, as they already have a lot on their plates (saw or otherwise).

As for my choice/s I'll have to give it a little more thought, but likely to be the Carcase Saw.

Happy to do the:

• 9" @0.02" dovetail

at the workshop but I would certainly want at least one kit to take home, probably more.

I'd love to make the dovetail saw and take the kit home for the carcass saw.

Grant

Originally Posted by doug3030

Happy to do the:

• 9" @0.02" dovetail

at the workshop but I would certainly want at least one kit to take home, probably more.

Do you mean potentially one of each or multiples of the same???

Personally I love the idea of being able to take a kit home to put a newly learnt skill into practice in short order, without having to go through the ordeal of tracking down and fabricating parts. In which case i'd love to make a dovetail saw on the day (the thicker one) and take a carcass kit home to play with.

Jack

I'd go the thicker dovetail on the day and take home the 2 others to do later.

Will there be much difference between the thicker plate DT and the carcass saw in use ? Genuine question.

I'd like 1 x DT & 1 x carcass and to make the hardest one on the day then take the other as a kit home.

Sam

Originally Posted by Sam

Will there be much difference between the thicker plate DT and the carcass saw in use ? Genuine question.

I'd like 1 x DT & 1 x carcass and to make the hardest one on the day then take the other as a kit home.

Sam

Sam, I've been corresponding with Dale on this topic, and I think I've managed to confuse both of us, at times!

Originally, I suggested that the ultra-thin saw was something of a connoisseur's choice, and not what I would suggest as ideal for a first project. This is because the thin plate would be more easy to kink if you were rough with it and forced a dull, under-set saw through a deep cut, for example. However, after some reflection, I decided my anxiety might be unnecessary, because this saw is going to be used for shallow cuts 90% of the time (or more) and so the danger is very slight. I've made a few of these for other people, and have so far not had any reports of problems, so they seem to be robust enough, at least for folk of from moderate to very experienced skill levels.

So what would be the difference between a 15 thou and a 20 thou thick saw which have all other dimensions the same? The answer is, very little. The 'ultra-thin' saws I've made myself, are quite light because I used a slightly thinner spine than on my larger saws (3/16" thick vs. 1/4"). These saws have a slightly 'springy' action when sawing - it's hard to describe, but you would notice it. A 20 thou saw will be fractionally heavier (which you would struggle to detect, blindfolded), and have a slightly stiffer feel when sawing. And that's about it.

When sharp & properly set both saws should cut at exactly the same rate, if toothed the same. I can vouch for this because I've compared different thickness saws a number of times. I first made the ' ultra-thin' saw because I thought it should cut faster, on the grounds that being thinner it has to remove less wood to make the same forward progress. I compared it with a saw that was the same except the plate was a bit thicker, & was somewhat surprised to find that they both travelled just as far down the same board after the same number of strokes. Actually, I have demonstrated this a number of times - for the same tooth size, and all else about the tooth profiles being equal, plate thickness makes little or difference to speed of cut, over the range of plate thicknesses I've been able to compare. I'm sure if you pushed it to extremes, you must get a difference, but at the levels we are talking about here, any differences are swamped by the other factors that determine how a saw cuts.

So it's Tweedle Dum or Tweedle Dee which thickness of plate you go for. Both will be fine-bladed saws (most old backsaws are closer to 25 thou) and which feels better to use will depend on you. I've fallen in love with my own ultra-thin' and it has been my go-to dovetail aw for some time, but I lent it to another very experienced w'worker recently, and he didn't like it at all.

There is one significant reason why you might prefer the finer plate, and that is the finer the plate, the finer the teeth it will take. Imagine cutting tiny teeth in really thick plate, then further imagine trying to pushing the upper third (the amount of tooth that should be displaced in setting, ideally) of these tiny, thick, teeth over. It is going to be very difficult, & if you do manage to squeeze the plunger hard enough, you are highly likely to end up with badly distorted things that won't cut at all well. I've used an extreme example to illustrate the point....

So, 20 thou plate will take 18-20 tpi reasonably well, while 15 thou plate will accept 24 plus tpi ok. However, I am not a big fan of very fine teeth. My thin-plate saw has about 15 1/2 tpi (that happened because of the template I used, it wasn't deliberate!) and I find that perfect for general cabinet-making, where I would be cutting dovetails in wood up to 19mm, but most often 16mm thick. I also use it on wood down to around 8mm, and occasionally even 6, without any problems. At 6mm, there are only about 4 teeth in the cut when the saw is horizontal, which is not ideal, but with a light saw & a light touch, it works fine. The reason I prefer my teeth on the larger rather than smaller end of the scale is that in general, larger teeth will cut faster because the gullets can hold more waste & they clog less & so cut faster, on average.

In summary, there would be little or no difference in most respects that matter, between the two gauges of dovetail saw toothed the same. The ultra-thin will give you some bragging rights at any toolaholics get-together, but unless you want a very fine-toothed saw (& there are people who do need or want them), either gauge will work very well for a good workaday dovetail saw.

The carcase saw is a different beast - this will be a longer, deeper saw and I think 20 thou plate is as thin as I'd like to use on a saw that size, myself. The saws are meant to be complementary, and I will be advising people to angle the grip of the carcase saw a little differently, and file it as a crosscut, depending on how they intend to use it most, of course. It will therefore be a little more challenging than the dovetail saw, which is why the d'tail was promoted as the one to make at the w'shop, though not much more. Once you get the idea of filing teeth, and we get you armed with a decent file, you will be well on your way, and you should find making any subsequent saws a breeze!

Cheers,

If I am lucky enough to attend I would prefer to make the thicker plate dovetail saw and take the other two as kits. My only question - Is one day long enough to make a saw? Ross

Originally Posted by wattycoo

If I am lucky enough to attend I would prefer to make the thicker plate dovetail saw and take the other two as kits. My only question - Is one day long enough to make a saw? Ross

Ross we thinks so provided everyone is of a sufficient level and able to follow along it really isn't rocket science it terms of ability needed. Can't be held accountable for those who may spend more time working their jaw than on their project saw.

At a worst case scenario you would have to do the final shaping/finishing of the handle at home. As most of you will be more than experienced in this area if there is anyone needing assistance there will be someone close by to assist or advice can be given on the forum. The hard parts will have the most focus so everyone has a working blade and the fitting done in class.