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  1. #46
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    Sounds good to me. I am a definite starter, Ross

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  3. #47
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    I think the idea of one saw on the day and a kit or two to go home with is fantastic.
    I would be looking at two kits to go away with.
    The price seems very fair,and yes I understand it may go up,that's understandable, seeming as all the hard work sourcing parts has been done.
    Matt.

    I personally would like to make the thiner dovetail.
    And proceed with the other kits at my leisure.

  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
    I think the idea of one saw on the day and a kit or two to go home with is fantastic.
    I would be looking at two kits to go away with.
    The price seems very fair,and yes I understand it may go up,that's understandable, seeming as all the hard work sourcing parts has been done.
    Matt.

    I personally would like to make the thiner dovetail.
    And proceed with the other kits at my leisure.
    Simplicity and a couple of others:

    The idea is to offer one of two alternatives for the dovetail saw at the workshop, plus the carcase saw so that you could end up with a complementary pair of saws that will form a very good nucleus of any set of bench saws. As I said above, there will be very little practical difference between the two dovetail saws, and to me it does not make a lot of sense to make two saws that are essentially the same. It would make more sense to make a completely different saw if you want three! However, we are going to be flat out getting enough kits together to ensure that everyone has the option of taking home a kit for whichever saw they don't make on the day, if they so wish, so I don't see us being able to offer more than what has been advertised so far. If even the number who have signed on in principle follow through, we are going to have to have a lot of kits ready. Preparing the brass-work and saw-plate is going to be labour-intensive, and is one of the limiting factors, so please keep your expectations reasonable. Dale is looking into the possibility of having components made in batches by industrial scale machinery, which may allow him to offer a range of kits in the future. However, he may find that the quantities he has to order are prohibitively large, & it's a big step to go from a few dozen kits to hundreds - you are talking serious investment. I doubt that's what many of us would be keen to get into, since our primary goal here is recreational , not vocational...

    I am already impressed that so many have put their hand up, and that people have expressed a willingness to travel so far to be part of the workshop. However, I have made it clear to Dale that I think we should put a limit on the number for the workshop, because if numbers get above a manageable level, some won't be able to get close enough to the action to see what's going on in the demonstrations, instructors can't give participants sufficient attention, and we'll end up with bottlenecks at the machines we need to use. At the end of the day, you may feel you didn't get your money's worth! I would hate to see anyone who is really keen miss out, so if this workshop ends up over-subscribed, I would suggest to Dale he try to organise another day and keep group sizes manageable, so that everyone feels they had a fair go. How we do that and where it might be would be a matter for subsequent discussion. Dale is the prime mover & shaker of this project, so it's his decision, ultimately.

    Cheers,
    IW

  5. #49
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    If I can offer assistance in some way before the big day.
    I would be happy to.
    I'm based in eastern suburbs Melbourne
    Sent me PM if u need a hand weekends would be best

  6. #50
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    ozhunter is offline Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmo
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    I'm in for sure. May be able to bludge a ride with FF and co, however, you may need to play this at night, every night, between now and then.
    If you find you have dug yourself a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging.
    I just finished child-proofing our house - but they still get inside.

  7. #51
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    UH-OH! I think he's telling us he pumps out zeds as upper case, bold, italic, 72 point, and probably red. What's more, I could believe it.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    As for files....
    I suppose the tooth pitch would be dependent upon the maker, but it would sound like they will be be fairly fine toothed, given that they are backsaws. I have some money with a guy in Switzerland at the moment (he owes for a plane from HNT). It's about €125 or something, so he could buy some Vallorbe Needles Cut 4 and post them out (assuming cost effectiveness at Euro prices, and as long as they can be posted as a letter the post shouldn't be too bad). They would be good for 15-20 ppi and possibly even a little coarser.

    Cheers
    Brett

    Brett, Based on you cost comparison over in the saw files 101, Does that mean we are better off sourcing local???
    …..Live a Quiet Life & Work with your Hands

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSEL74 View Post
    Brett, Based on you cost comparison over in the saw files 101, Does that mean we are better off sourcing local???
    ould be Dale. I'm yet to send the cat nos to the chap in Switzerland, but based on the that other Swiss site Oz is looking good for Needle files (somehow).
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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  10. #54
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    I would love to join you guys for this little Tutorial.
    It would be nice to have a play and watch everyone get the buzz of rolling your own saw.
    Let me know the details when it's all arranged.
    Kevin

  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSEL74 View Post
    Do you mean potentially one of each or multiples of the same???
    Sorry for taking so long to reply, computer problems, someone should blow microsoft up.

    anyway to answer the question, as I said the thicker dovetail saw would be my choice at the workshop. kits to take home would be ideally a couple of carcase saws, one filed to rip and one to crosscut.

    BTW I am hoping the dovetail saw is going to be around 15 TPI?

    Carcase saws around 12 TPI?

    There has been a bit of mention in the work required to set up the kits for the workshop and take-away kits. This seems to be around the brass bar and the sawblade. Is the course comprehensively teaching all that we need to know to buy the components and make a saw or is some of it prefabricated?

    Either way, I am a definite starter, but if there are skills required that are not being included on the course itself, I would like to learn them too and volunteer my time to help set up kits under the tutilage of the experts if that is at all possible.

    What machines are needed? I may be able to help out there too.

    Cheers

    Doug

    Edit: How would walnut go for the handles?
    I got sick of sitting around doing nothing - so I took up meditation.

  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug3030 View Post
    Sorry for taking so long to reply, computer problems, someone should blow microsoft up.

    anyway to answer the question, as I said the thicker dovetail saw would be my choice at the workshop. kits to take home would be ideally a couple of carcase saws, one filed to rip and one to crosscut.

    BTW I am hoping the dovetail saw is going to be around 15 TPI?

    Carcase saws around 12 TPI?

    There has been a bit of mention in the work required to set up the kits for the workshop and take-away kits. This seems to be around the brass bar and the sawblade. Is the course comprehensively teaching all that we need to know to buy the components and make a saw or is some of it prefabricated?

    Either way, I am a definite starter, but if there are skills required that are not being included on the course itself, I would like to learn them too and volunteer my time to help set up kits under the tutilage of the experts if that is at all possible.

    What machines are needed? I may be able to help out there too.

    Cheers

    Doug

    Edit: How would walnut go for the handles?

    Ok now there is a thinking man, one cross cut & one rip. The dovetail saw will be what ever TPI you desire to file the teeth at. Same with the others, it is up to the individual. Various guides for setting out the spacing will be on hand.

    The work we are referring to is sourcing the stock for the blades, as it isn't easily found especially at the prices I'm getting for you guys and in a bright finish, mostly it comes blue oxidised and you have to remove the blue and polish it. The plate will come in large rolls. So it needs to be cut down in length, and in the case of the dovetail saw width as well. This is done with an angle grinder with a then cutting wheel and some clamped guides.

    The brass backs need to have the slit cut into them with a slitting saw on an arbor either in a sturdy drill press with a custom made table setup or done in a mill.

    The brass bolts and split nuts again are being turned up on a lathe manually.

    All this is being done for you at no cost guys, You are simply getting it for the cost of material. Which is why the kit is half the price of what you will buy from the guys in the selling overseas and your not paying freight on top of that! Which is makes the kit super cheap as freight is often triple the product.

    If we were to do all this physically in the class we would be there a month, it will how ever be explained how its done and various options as to how it can be achieved at home if you wish to go further after the kits from raw materials.


    Walnut is excellent for the handles, it needs to be rift sawn or quarter sawn and the grain running through the longest side. Do you have some or are you requesting it, I wasn't really sure of the context?
    …..Live a Quiet Life & Work with your Hands

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSEL74 View Post
    Walnut is excellent for the handles, it needs to be rift sawn or quarter sawn and the grain running through the longest side. Do you have some or are you requesting it, I wasn't really sure of the context?

    I have some walnut. I will have to have another look at it to make sure it has the right grain orientation next time I am in the timber vault.

    CHeers

    Doug
    I got sick of sitting around doing nothing - so I took up meditation.

  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug3030 View Post
    BTW I am hoping the dovetail saw is going to be around 15 TPI?

    Carcase saws around 12 TPI?
    Doug,
    Those are exactly the tpis I would recommend for these two saws, rip profile (i.e. 5-8 degrees rake) for the dovetail and crosscut for the carcase saw. That should give you a very versatile pair of bench saws for general small to medium work. However, much of the attraction of rolling your own is to get exactly what you want, and tpi and tooth profiles are the easiest things to alter to suit the individual, so whatever you like. I'll bring a couple of metal templates to mark out the common sizes. This is the easiest & quickest way to do it, but we can have plenty of paper templates available so you can file whatever you want on the day.

    Better still, here's a link to a pdf of templates of all the sizes you could possibly want, so if anyone wants a special tpi, print yourself off the appropriate size and bring it with you on the day. I suggest you print off the one you want & check it against a ruler - different printers seem to come up with different spacings from what the tpi on the page says. There is a different set of templates here if you prefer these.

    Quote Originally Posted by doug3030 View Post
    There has been a bit of mention in the work required to set up the kits for the workshop and take-away kits. This seems to be around the brass bar and the sawblade. Is the course comprehensively teaching all that we need to know to buy the components and make a saw or is some of it prefabricated?
    Doug, the work involved is just time-consuming. My setup is fine for making a saw or three at a time, but I'm not geared up for high production work. To keep costs down, we are preparing as much as possible, and as Dale has said, we should be able to supply kits at a fraction of what a kit bought o'seas would cost you by the time you land it here. Saw-making takes mediaeval technology, really - you could do everything yourself, including making your own steel, if the neighbors don't object to your setting up a smelter in the back yard, but the cost of steel plate & the ease with which you can shape it render that step unnecessary, I think.

    I intend to show you all I know about making small saws (dunno what we'll do for the other 7 hours & 55 minutes set down for the day! ). No, seriously, I hope to show you at least a couple of ways of going about each step, which you choose according to your ability & the gear you have at home. For example, you can buy saw bolts, or make them. If you have a metal lathe you can make very professional ones, but you can also make pretty convincing bolts with the simplest of gear. My message will be that you can try this at home..

    Walnut is good (either Endiandra (Qld), or Juglans ('real' w'nut) for handles. There are hundreds of woods in the world suitable for handles, so again, it's your choice. For the workshop, we intended to supply the handles for the saws made on the day, but there is no reason not to bring your own, the handles aren't a major cost in this enterprise. These are custom saws, so go with a handle wood you want to live with, but have it pre-prepared so you don't have to waste time on the day. You need a piece about 125mm wide by 200m long, that will clean up to 24mm thick. That size will give you some wriggle-room to get around any small defects. The reasons for specifying thickness are (a) it makes a very comfortable size of grip for the average hand and (b) I'm making the saw bolts 25mm long, so if you go more than a mm thicker, you won't be able to have the bolt heads & nuts exactly flush with the cheeks. I like to have a leetle bit of extra bolt & trim it at the end to keep everything neat & flush.

    You can go a bit thinner & trim more off the bolts, if you have a truly special piece of wood you desperately want to use, but I recommend you don't go thinner than 22m or you get a wincey grip that doesn't feel right unless you have a very small hand (in which case you may prefer it thinner!). Two mm variation doesn't sound much, but it can make a very noticeable difference to the 'fullness' of a grip.

    Edit: We also made an executive decision to make the bolt heads 7/16" because they will suit the sizes of handles we are making. I will make sets of 1/2" heads as well, so if anyone feels deprived of brass for their handles, they can opt for that size. Once we get things truly settled, I might take a straw poll to see who wants what, so we will be able to get the right mix of sizes....
    Keep the questions rolling....

    Cheers,
    IW

  15. #59
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    Thanks for the links to the saw templates. I would like to practice saw filing leading up to the event. The saw templates will show me where to place the teeth on the blank plate . I understand the basics of rip and cross cut teeth and why i would choose a rip over a crosscut for larger work. Where can i find some information on those more advanced concepts of teeth filing for backsaws eg different tooth profiles why i would use one angle over the other, setting up a half rip etc. please

  16. #60
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    [
    Quote Originally Posted by Pac man View Post
    ...... I understand the basics of rip and cross cut teeth and why i would choose a rip over a crosscut for larger work. Where can i find some information on those more advanced concepts of teeth filing for backsaws eg different tooth profiles why i would use one angle over the other, setting up a half rip etc. please
    Short answer: All over the internet, books, old-timers, other Forumites, you-name-it!

    There is no short answer, really - it's a debated topic and I think some confusion creeps in when folks in our neck of the woods read what Northern hemisphere gurus say and what locals say, because on average, we are gnawing away on very much harder fare than they are. I lived in Nth America for quite some time so I know there isn't much there to compare with our bone-hard & often highly siliceous woods. I recommend the saw-filing treatise as a good starting point for anyone starting out to make or sharpen a saw. It's not too long-winded, and it explains the function of rake & fleam and how to achieve them. I don't follow his methods exactly, but mine are close enough.

    So during the introduction to the w'shop we'll have a discussion about what rake angles and fleam angles do, and what is most likely to happen when you alter them. And I'll almost certainly talk about those that work for me. Participants can chose whatever they like, based on whim or prior experience or for whatever reason. I will use angles for the demos which I've more or less settled on after some trial & error as good for average conditions. These are probably as good a start point as any, but I would expect people will go away and experiment to find what they like best for themselves & not follow me blindly - I'm still groping my way to the light, too!

    Cheers,
    IW

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