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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Ian

    Once the teeth are 20ppi is there any practical advantage in going with a finer tooth, particularly bearing in mind the difficulty of both seeing and filing. I imagine that the teeth become fully blocked in no time at all during the sawing process. Maybe not quite so much on ultra thin stock.

    I do have a jeweler's loupe that attaches to the Optivisor headband if you are set on 30ppi and you are welcome to borrow it.

    I have never actually used it myself!

    Regards
    Paul
    I would be interested in seeing how a 30 ppi toothed saw has its teeth set ?[emoji6]

    Cheers Matt.

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    .......Once the teeth are 20ppi is there any practical advantage in going with a finer tooth, particularly bearing in mind the difficulty of both seeing and filing. I imagine that the teeth become fully blocked in no time at all during the sawing process. Maybe not quite so much on ultra thin stock....
    Paul, I think you are imagining a razor saw cutting substantial things, but they are used for very tiny stuff, literally not much more than match sticks. The very fine teeth are useful because they don't catch & splinter thin pieces - have you ever tried cutting balsa with a 'rea'l saw? That's the sort of job a razor saw excels at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    ....... I do have a jeweler's loupe that attaches to the Optivisor headband if you are set on 30ppi and you are welcome to borrow it. ....l
    Thanks, but no need, I can sort of see the teeth with specs & headband & manage mostly by feel. Look at a 32tpi hacksaw blade, the teeth aren't invisible, and these saws are very short, thankfully. The biggest problem is maintaining concentration, and moving to a new gullet each time - if anyone speaks to me in the middle of sharpening any saw with >15tpi, I'm done for!

    Quote Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
    I would be interested in seeing how a 30 ppi toothed saw has its teeth set?...
    No problem a'tall Matt, they don't usually have any set.
    You really don't need any set to make very shallow cuts in stock 5mm wide. But you can set them if you wish - with a screwdriver. Yup, a screwdriver - you place it in every 2nd gullet & give it a little twist. I learnt that from my Tage Frid book - he set his 15tpi bowsaw blades that way. It works quite well, but takes a bit of practice to be consistent.....

    Cheers,
    IW

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Paul, I think you are imagining a razor saw cutting substantial things, but they are used for very tiny stuff, literally not much more than match sticks. The very fine teeth are useful because they don't catch & splinter thin pieces - have you ever tried cutting balsa with a 'rea'l saw? That's the sort of job a razor saw excels at.



    Thanks, but no need, I can sort of see the teeth with specs & headband & manage mostly by feel. Look at a 32tpi hacksaw blade, the teeth aren't invisible, and these saws are very short, thankfully. The biggest problem is maintaining concentration, and moving to a new gullet each time - if anyone speaks to me in the middle of sharpening any saw with >15tpi, I'm done for!



    No problem a'tall Matt, they don't usually have any set.
    You really don't need any set to make very shallow cuts in stock 5mm wide. But you can set them if you wish - with a screwdriver. Yup, a screwdriver - you place it in every 2nd gullet & give it a little twist. I learnt that from my Tage Frid book - he set his 15tpi bowsaw blades that way. It works quite well, but takes a bit of practice to be consistent.....

    Cheers,
    Ian,

    That screwdriver trick is actually quite a neat idea [emoji106][emoji106].

    Cheers Matt.

  5. #19
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    Ian

    I had not realised how small a piece of wood we were talking. I have not cut balsa since I was at prep school! We used something akin to a Stanley knife for cutting the thin sheets, but some pieces were probably the equivalent of a 3 x 2 and they had to be sawn. It was only in more recent years I realsised that Balsa has a wide range of density: Often quoted as 50 - 400Kg/m³ (commercially 110-170Kg/m³).

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  6. #20
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    Default More on saw plate availability

    For anyone interested and assuming Ian is referring to 1095 grade, the 6 off 12"x 6" shim stock packs seem to be once again available on Amazon? Simply search for '1095 shim stock'.

  7. #21
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    Yep, well spotted, that seems to be the one.....
    IW

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Yep, well spotted, that seems to be the one.....
    Where do you get your saw nuts from?

  9. #23
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    Default More on saw plate availability

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Ash View Post
    Where do you get your saw nuts from?

    I've been wondering the same thing and, noting that among the six saws there are at least five different material / shape combinations of nuts as far as I can tell, I'm going to guess that the ever resourceful Ian has custom turned and slotted the nuts himself.

  10. #24
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    I was waiting for Ian to respond, but I can confirm that he does indeed make the saw screws himself. For a long while he made a more modern (thicker stems) version of the split nut screws, but more recently has made the "modern" Glover style.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  11. #25
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    Sorry, bit late replying, but I've been having a delightful day on grandparent duty, and you blokes take second place to that!

    Yep, this is the nut & bolt factory: Lathe.jpg

    But long before I had my little lathe, I made saws, so had to scratch around for suitable fixings. I've used a few different approaches: Saw bolts a.jpg

    The Chicago, or bookbinders bolts at left are ok, they do the job but are the least 'authentic'. So I started making my own using threaded brass rod, a head cut from a bit of brass rod, and nuts also cut from brass rod, the slotted with a hacksaw (second from left). These can look pretty convincing, but at the time I only had 3/16" threaded brass rod (which I found in the plumbing section, they were replacement bits for an old model toilet cistern, iirc), but having thread along the entire shank is a pest because it catches on the saw plate when you are trying to insert & tighten them.

    So when the 'toy' lathe came into my life, I could make any style I pleased. As Paul says, I choose to make the bolts a little thicker than the traditional bolts at 5mm diameter instead of ~3.2mm as you'll find on most older saws. However I do make 4mm or sometimes even 3mm bolts for the small dovetail saws, 5mm looks out of proportion on these.

    So that's not bad spotting, Salv, there are two different sizes of bolts with split nuts in that lot, and two different sizes of the "glover" bolts (with sleeve nuts).......

    Cheers,
    IW

  12. #26
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    Default More on saw plate availability

    Ian,

    The surprise for me is that by 3mm, 4mm and 5mm you are referring M4, M4 and M5, respectively, ie. metric in lieu of equivalent imperial, presumably UNC or UNF. I have always enjoyed turning up various widgets on a metal working lathe and in planning in my mind's eye the turning of suitable screws and slotted nuts, I had taken it as a given to go with imperial threads in the name of tradition. Looking back now, that was probably a bit pedantic on my part given I already have metric tooling on hand and that the metric system is my 'first language' in engineering so to speak.

  13. #27
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    Salv, I don't think I could accuse you of being 'pedantic' without being a bit hypocritical, I tend to follow tradition too in most situations, after all, tried & tested is usually safer! But not if I think it's impractical for my situation & another way is not going to make any discernible difference. So yes, I do use metric threads, mainly because I have a full set of reasonable-quality taps with starter, intermediate & bottoming taps, whereas my Imperial taps & dies are a very scrappy lot, acquired piecemeal over many years.

    With the screw threads on the saw bolts, I started out using whatever I could find in small-diameter threaded brass that matched taps I had (to make the nuts). I've found some variation in the threads of old saw bolts; I couldn't determine what pitch a couple were, but in all cases they were relatively coarse, which I thought wasn't so wise given the thin nuts usually employed (made even thinner by being sanded flush after they were seated) often give only a turn & a bit of thread to hold onto. So I make slightly thicker nuts (usually ~4mm vs the <3mm I've usually found on old saws). That said, I've only come across a couple of stripped nuts or bolts so maybe that's being over-cautious. Also, as I'm sure you'll know, fine threads are easier for the clumsy-fingered to cross-thread and end up making a mess of all that careful work. I took a cue from the originals and put a goodly chamfer on the bottom side of the nuts so they have plenty of clearance to get them started straight and guide them to pull snugly into a tight counter-sink.

    One of the reasons I switched to the more modern sleeve nuts is because they are easier to manage than 'split' nuts. The handles of small saws make them awkward to hold properly in my saw vise, so I take them off if doing a full joint, re-form & sharpen. The handles of some of my small saws are going to be off & on quite a few times in the life of the saw.

    For Paul's set of saws, we had some discussion on what diameter to make the bolts & the decision was to make them a bit more robust than the originals. Again, that was possibly over-abundant caution because I can't say I've seen many broken bolts, though I have certainly seen some rather bent ones from old saws. I find that a bit surprising actually, as they are not only thin, but made from pretty soft brass, and often left loose for years on end.

    So there you go - my full philosophy on saw bolts....

    Cheers,
    IW

  14. #28
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    I think that is my cue to direct you to post #37 on the link below as Ian is too modest to show his generosity and talent:

    A Crazy Saw Service - Page 3 (woodworkforums.com)

    One pic, just as a teaser for the saw screws he made for me:

    Ian's saw screws.JPG

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  15. #29
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    Default More on saw plate availability

    Ian,

    Hard to argue with your philosophy, respectful of tradition but tempered with a sensible dose of pragmatism.

    Paul,

    Thanks for the link, and the thread in general. Anyone would be proud of those brass goodies.

    Cheers
    Salv

  16. #30
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    I'm glad that the phrase eating one's hat is mainly metaphorical as over the years I would have had to consume many such pieces of headgear to the extent I would certainly have investigated the material from which they were made!

    Recently as part of another purchase I came by some small saws: The sort of saw I never thought I would own. I had not appreciated how small they were until I took possession of them. The blade length is 125mm. It is 27ppi, I think , without any set and the plate thickness .012", It immediately reminded me of the thinner pieces of shim stock Ian bought.

    P1060922 (Medium).JPG

    It came with two spare blades and seems to be intended to cut on the pull stroke, although it looks as though the blade can be installed in either direction. I have not tried this yet. The hole in the plate I suppose would normally go at the toe so the jury is out on which direction the teeth should face. With only 18mm under the back the saw is extremely rigid.

    It is made in Germany, but has no other markings other than a symbol with which I am unfamiliar.

    P1060929 (Medium).JPG

    If I was filing in those teeth I would have to use a huge level of magnification!

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

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