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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    I'm glad that the phrase eating one's hat is mainly metaphorical as over the years I would have had to consume many such pieces of headgear to the extent I would certainly have investigated the material from which they were made!

    Recently as part of another purchase I came by some small saws: The sort of saw I never thought I would own. I had not appreciated how small they were until I took possession of them. The blade length is 125mm. It is 27ppi, I think , without any set and the plate thickness .012", It immediately reminded me of the thinner pieces of shim stock Ian bought.

    Attachment 487717

    It came with two spare blades and seems to be intended to cut on the pull stroke, although it looks as though the blade can be installed in either direction. I have not tried this yet. The hole in the plate I suppose would normally go at the toe so the jury is out on which direction the teeth should face. With only 18mm under the back the saw is extremely rigid.

    It is made in Germany, but has no other markings other than a symbol with which I am unfamiliar.

    Attachment 487718

    If I was filing in those teeth I would have to use a huge level of magnification!

    Regards
    Paul
    Paul,
    I would suggest a dash of salt and maybe a aged white to go with the hat.
    They may be more fitting,considering this relentless climate we are subjected too.
    Have the Gods no shame.

    The saws look very similar too a couple of Razor saws I have, they are more suited to timber stock 10 mm square an smaller, Toy makers Doll house makers, and that Japanese stuff with all the little bits and pieces.

    But I’m not a fan of them, they seem to bind all the time,but maybe that’s just me expecting them to keep they’re keep with my “Bigger saws”
    I’m not going to even bother trying to sharpen them.

    Cheers Matt.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post

    The saws look very similar too a couple of Razor saws I have, they are more suited to timber stock 10 mm square an smaller, Toy makers Doll house makers, and that Japanese stuff with all the little bits and pieces.

    But I’m not a fan of them, they seem to bind all the time,but maybe that’s just me expecting them to keep they’re keep with my “Bigger saws”
    I’m not going to even bother trying to sharpen them.

    Cheers Matt.
    Matt

    It may well be why they come with spare blades and are called razor saws. Throw 'em away when they 're blunt. You certainly need big eyes for those little teeth.

    I am looking forward to Ian's version with a cute little brass back.



    Regards
    Paul

    Ps: Could your saws be used for squaring off pen blanks?
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Matt

    It may well be why they come with spare blades and are called razor saws. Throw 'em away when they 're blunt. You certainly need big eyes for those little teeth.

    I am looking forward to Ian's version with a cute little brass back.



    Regards
    Paul

    Ps: Could your saws be used for squaring off pen blanks?
    I find they even struggle in Pen Blanks,
    Most pen blanks I see are 20/25 mm square.

    I just use one of my own back saws for pen blanks.
    Unless it’s acrylic then I use a cheap Japanese pull saw.

    Cheers Matt

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Recently as part of another purchase I came by some small saws: The sort of saw I never thought I would own. I had not appreciated how small they were until I took possession of them. The blade length is 125mm. It is 27ppi, I think , without any set and the plate thickness .012", It immediately reminded me of the thinner pieces of shim stock Ian bought.
    I also bought one of those a while back, and was also surprised by the size (or lack of size) when it arrived. I’ve never used it, because I haven’t done anything that seemed to need something that small.

  6. #35
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    Well Paul, wait no longer: Ultra thin 1.jpg


    By sheer coincidence, I was working on it today. Since we are confined to barracks, I decided to play with a piece of 10 thou plate to see what it can do. I whacked off a chunk 30 x 150mm for a blade. This is quite a bit bigger than I thought would be practical with such thin stuff, but I wanted to push it to its limits, just to see.

    The handle is my attempt to make something more interesting than a straight turning, the bend is supposed to give me better orientation and more feel to where the saw is in use: Ultra thin a.jpg

    It's toothed at 18tpi.

    So what's it like? Not brilliant, I have to say. The plate is stiff enough with the back I've given it (5 x 19mm), but it's not a smooth cutter. It slices through 15-20mm thick wood quickly, but has a rather jagged action, some of which is due to a couple of high teeth, & some simply because it's so thin & it 'bites' more than I expected. There is also too much set - I have the anvil on the saw-set wound round to the minimum size chamfer it goes to, but it's still pushing over almost the entire tooth. Another thing I found is that it's really hard to cut even teeth in such thin material - two strokes of the file takes a tooth to full depth, so you have to be super-consistent with length & pressure of the strokes to keep them even. When it takes 5 or 6 or more strokes to cut a tooth, inconsistencies tend to cancel out better (well, that's my explanation, anyway).

    I tried putting finer teeth (24tpi) on another small piece, and they went on ok - these are still a bit uneven, but the smaller size seemed to cut more smoothly (I haven't put any set on these yet, maybe I won't & see what they do :24tpi.jpg

    Anyway, I had some fun, and started on what I originally thought I might do with this "ultra-thin" plate: Whatsit.jpg

    Gunna do a Matt & not sayin' any more - you'll find out in a day or two, if it works out. If not, just forget about what you saw......

    Cheers,

  7. #36
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    Ian

    I just knew it: That you wouldn't be able to help yourself and the sight of a bare plate would demand a handle and teeth! Now that handle is very reminiscent of this from Disston 1918 catalogue:

    Disston Turkish saw 1918 catalogue.jpg

    The Turkish saw I am fairly certain was designed to cut on the pull stroke, although there is no mention above so I don't know where I got that impression.

    I too have some small saws on the go, but I have a feeling that yours will surface before mine.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  8. #37
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    Default More on saw plate availability..

    Ok you two,

    What’s your thoughts on using some of that for a veener saw.?

    Cheers Matt.

    On reflection maybe not.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
    ....What’s your thoughts on using some of that for a veener saw.?.....
    I s'pose you could use it for a veneer saw Matt, but the veneer saws I've seen have their blades bevelled to a sharp edge along the tooth line, i.e., like a knife with teeth. The 10 thou plate would get pretty flimsy if you sharpened it. I can't remember what gauge plate I used for my veneer saw, but it was probably 25 thou or thereabouts: Veneer saw b.jpg

    Paul, that Turkish saw is a good deal larger than my puny little saw! In the catalogue picture it has symmetrical teeth, so it must work equally well in either direction..
    Not really, of course, artists look many liberties when drawing tools for catalogues - the person doing the illustration probably had no idea of typical tooth geometry & just drew the teeth nice & even.

    I forgot to mention that I actually tried my saw cutting on the pull stroke when I first assembled it, thinking the thin blade might work better that way. But then I reasoned the force on the teeth is the same whether the saw is pushed or pulled so I switched it round and it worked just as well cutting on the push stroke. I just don't get on with pull-to-cut saws, been pushing 'em for 60 years, so I reckon I may as well continue doing it that way for the time I have left....

    Cheers,
    IW

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Paul, that Turkish saw is a good deal larger than my puny little saw! In the catalogue picture it has symmetrical teeth, so it must work equally well in either direction..
    Not really, of course, artists look many liberties when drawing tools for catalogues - the person doing the illustration probably had no idea of typical tooth geometry & just drew the teeth nice & even.

    I forgot to mention that I actually tried my saw cutting on the pull stroke when I first assembled it, thinking the thin blade might work better that way. But then I reasoned the force on the teeth is the same whether the saw is pushed or pulled so I switched it round and it worked just as well cutting on the push stroke. I just don't get on with pull-to-cut saws, been pushing 'em for 60 years, so I reckon I may as well continue doing it that way for the time I have left....

    Cheers,
    I can't offer any advice on veneer saws.

    I agree that the artist's impression can often be exactly that. This is the extract from a Disston publication "The Saw in History." This one was dated 1915

    The relevant bit on the Turkish saw is at the foot of the LH page and top of the RH page.

    Turkish saw. The saw in History 1915.jpg

    I will have to try out my small saws to see just what they will cut.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  11. #40
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    Paul, those "Turkish" saws are interesting - I hadn't known Disston made such things before you brought them to our attention. The text implies they were made for export, not local consumption.

    I remembered seeing pictures of ancient Egyptians using similar-looking saws, so I did a bit of googling & sure enough, found some pictures of saws dating back up to 5,000 years that are similar. Some have straight "knife" handles & some curved handles, similar to, but not as elaborate as Mr. Disston's version. Interesting to think the same handle design has been in use for something like 5,000 years - now that's what I'd call time-tested!

    Of course the earliest Egyptian saws predated the use of iron by a couple of thousand years and instead were made of copper or copper alloys which lasted well in the dry climate & have been dug up in goodly numbers. I wonder how they sharpened them? Can't imagine a copper file would be a lot of use, but I reckon a copper saw would need pretty frequent attention!

    Cheers,
    IW

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Paul, those "Turkish" saws are interesting - I hadn't known Disston made such things before you brought them to our attention. The text implies they were made for export, not local consumption.

    I remembered seeing pictures of ancient Egyptians using similar-looking saws, so I did a bit of googling & sure enough, found some pictures of saws dating back up to 5,000 years that are similar. Some have straight "knife" handles & some curved handles, similar to, but not as elaborate as Mr. Disston's version. Interesting to think the same handle design has been in use for something like 5,000 years - now that's what I'd call time-tested!

    Of course the earliest Egyptian saws predated the use of iron by a couple of thousand years and instead were made of copper or copper alloys which lasted well in the dry climate & have been dug up in goodly numbers. I wonder how they sharpened them? Can't imagine a copper file would be a lot of use, but I reckon a copper saw would need pretty frequent attention!

    Cheers,
    I guess using a copper or bronze saw depends also on the wood one is using it at. Not sure what types of wood and how hard the old Egyptians had. After your post I googled also a bit, but couldn't make out wether they used pull or push stroke. Ome pic suggests a pull stroke, which maybe makes more sense on using softer plate material?

    They must have had some sort of sharpening. Probably some stone? Might limit how small the teeth.

    So well time tested. Are we going to see a replica made by you soon then and ran through some tests, Ian? [emoji6]

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cklett View Post
    I guess using a copper or bronze saw depends also on the wood one is using it at. Not sure what types of wood and how hard the old Egyptians had....
    They had quite a range, it seems. Certainly a lot of softwood was used for building & ships' planking, especially the "Cedar of Lebanon", from which they got (mostly by cleaving, it's suggested) clear planks up to 70 feet (> 20 metres) long. But they also used hardwoods, including ebony for furniture. They did some exquisite inlay with wood & precious stones. How they did such fine work with tools we'd consider wrse than junk beats me. Imagine if someone tried to flog us copper saws!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cklett View Post
    ....Ome pic suggests a pull stroke, which maybe makes more sense on using softer plate material?...
    Indeed, a copper saw would need to be intolerably thick to be stiff enough for a push saw, methinks. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the teeth that have survived on some examples indicate they cut on the pull stroke. It makes sense that "pull" saws are still used in the general vicinity today.

    I think it's fascinating how different cultures pursued different styles of saws & sawing techniques, no doubt as a continuation of very early traditions. For example, Europe went the thin, tensioned blade route for joinery (bow saws, etc.), while the English-speaking world developed the back saw. In a time when good steel was expensive, it made sense to use it sparingly; using 10 times more metal than absolutely necessary by making back saws seems profligate in retrospect. P'raps it was just a form of conspicuous consumption, "Look, we're so damn god at this metallurgy business we can afford to splash it around...."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cklett View Post
    ..... Are we going to see a replica made by you soon then and ran through some tests, Ian? ......
    Nope.
    IW

  14. #43
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    Default This is harder than I thought!

    So, I was going to present you with a pic of a perfect 1/3rd scale model of a dovetail saw this evening. Instead you can only have a pic of a half-finished, imperfect example: Saws cf.jpg

    In my naivity, I thought it would be an easy job to make a 1/3rd scale saw. This little plane is very close to 1/3rd scale if you take a typical smoother to be about 200-225mm long... 4 Done.jpg

    .. and although a bit fiddly compared with a full-sized plane, it wasn't all that difficult to keep it roughly to scale.

    The problem with the saw is reducing everything in the proper scale. I've ended up fudging several dimensions because I could not manage to work with them, or because I don't have the tooling for the 'proper' size. It starts with the saw plate, the original is 0.015", so 1/3rd would be 5 thou, but that's just too ridiculously flimsy to file teeth in, so I used 0.010". Then the saw bolts became a problem because the smallest taps & dies I have are 3mm (1.5mm would be closer to correct). Even at 3mm the damn things are tiny enough & I dropped one on the floor, which took me 10 minutes to find!

    The spine should be 2mm thick (approx), but I don't have any 2mm brass so it became 3.2mm, more than 50% over spec.

    Shaping the handle was possibly the most awkward job of all - nothing to hold onto, & even my smallest rasps are gigantical when offered up to such a dinky thing. I've spent more time on it (partly because I remade it twice!) than on a full sized handle & it's still an hour or more from being done.

    All in all, I have a new-found respect for those who make perfect scale models. If I were to take a serious turn in that direction, I would need to add a couple more machines to the shed (a small milling machine would be a good start) and make/buy some much smaller tools than the ones I have atm!

    Think I'll be better served if I stick with full-sized tools....

    Cheers,
    IW

  15. #44
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    Ian

    Possibly the issue is that you took an already very small saw and attempted to miniature that. I noticed the saw in the llink to John Maki showed a panel saw so you could have taken a panel saw of, say, 22" and scaled that down. The .032" plate there would have equated to about .010" in the scale model: More manageable by far.

    However, my hat off to you for even attempting such a task.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  16. #45
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    Well, small, Paul, but I would hesitate to call it very small - at least I wasn't trying to shrink one of your razor saws...

    I'm afraid I was blind-sided by hubris & not thinking the entire project through. One third doesn't seem like much of a reduction at first blush, & certainly not as extreme as 1/12 scale, which is what I was initially contemplating. I sat down & made some scale drawings of a couple of tools at 1/12 scale, and very quickly realised I would need some extra tools and the material I have in stock is way too robust to work at that scale! I did a few rough calculations for 1/3rd reductions of parts for the saw & decided that was more manageable if I fudged some a bit (like the saw plate thickness) and it wouldn't affect the 'realistic' look too much. But dimensions need to be petty close or the tool will look 'wrong' - like dressing a toddler up in a suit & trying to pass it off as an adult - it wouldn't fool anyone. It was only once I got seriously into the project that I discovered how rough some of my calculations really were & how tricky it was going to be to keep things looking in proportion from every angle!

    Anyway, it's an interesting journey, a whole new world could open up here, but I'm truly hesitant to go there. If you are going to dabble in miniatures, it would make far more sense to do it when you are young, with good eyesight & more nimble fingers!

    Cheers,
    IW

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