Thread: Sawsmithing hammers

My never ending quest for data has compelled me to purchase three additional authentic sawsmithing hammers. By the looks of them these have never been used. I know nothing of their manufacturer or date of manufacture.

The labels and stamps on the handles read 'Forest King Hickory, Brunner Ivory AR'. I found this:
The Ivory Handle Factory, incorporated in 1901, produced hardwood handles that were shipped worldwide, in addition to other wood products. It became Bruner Ivory Handle Factory in 1933, was sold to a Tennessee company in 1980 (Link), closed in 2004, and burned on September 25, 2012.
Here: Hickory Tool Handles Made in USA : Handle Manufacturer of the Past, Bruner-Ivory Co.

Perhaps the heads were sold un-handled?

Left to right they are 3.5 lb. diagonal (twist) peen, 2.5 lb. cross-peen/straight peen and 1.5 lb. straight peen /square. The face hardnesses of these hammers are respectively HRC 57, 57.5, and 60.5. Interesting that the smaller hammer is the hardest. On the side of the heads near the eyes these hammers measure ~ HRC 31-39 suggesting that the face hardening method of Krupp was applied in their manufacture as well.

sawsmithing hammers 031516.jpg

The higher hardnesses measured for hammers I know to have been manufactured for sawsmithing makes me less concerned about the face hardness of the hammers I'm making in light of the excellent performance of the Stollmeyer hammers which, despite their somewhat softer faces at HRC 49(s) and 44(l), and slipping handles have given superb service. I'm also somewhat concerned about the possibility of denting or breaking anvil faces, particularly those of more recent manufacture which are closer to HRC 50.

Nonetheless I feel it important to duplicate the standard by measuring the characteristics of examples of sawsmithing hammers as I've done in the past here with hammer tensioning of panel saw blades. I'll then try to improve them.

This should make a difference.

quenching oil.jpg

More data, this time for three Japanese manufacture saw setting hammers.

S = HRC 49
M = HRC 49
L = HRC 51

Are these softer because Japanese saw teeth are harder?

I've brought another of these along to completion. The mass of this one is 995 gm.

995 side view full.jpg

995 oblique.jpg

I also moved three more a step closer to completion.

next batch of 1 kg dog head hammers.jpg

These will be heat treated and fitted up tomorrow.

Rob

Your saw smithing hammers have inspired me. I have some off cuts of railway iron down in NSW which I will bring back with me next time I visit. I would like to make up a set of three or four for handsaws. What would be your thoughts on styles and weights? I imagine there would be a couple of weights and a couple of styles to cater for tensioning and repair.

Regards
Paul

Hi Paul,

My understanding is that railway tracks are made from steel having a pretty high carbon content, something like 0.8%, so it should work well considering that it's also alloyed for toughness.

I'm planning on making dog's head round faced hammers ranging from .75 lb. up to about 3 lb. My experience so far shows me that a hammer in the 1.5 lb range is good for 0.032" and 0.035" saw steel work. The 2.5 lb. hammers are best for 0.042". I've used my various hammers on steel down to 0.025" with success but it demands a light touch. The heaviest saw hammer I have is a 5 pounder and it really is too heavy. I find myself using it very gingerly.

As to the handles I really like a longer, whippier handle. I raise the head and with just a slight push let it fall on the saw plate. Swinging the hammer like you mean it is a recipe for dents. A short handle, such as is used on heavy forging and drilling hammers doesn't work for me.

I've read comments around the web that the straight/cross peen and diagonal peen hammers were primarily used for bandsaw and circular saw blades respectively. I find that the diagonal peen hammers are excellent for straightening. Haven't tried my new straight and cross peen hammers on handsaw steel yet but I'll let you know.

Cheers,
Rob

Got another one of these assembled today. The second from the left is on 1.25" stock with a completed mass of 715 gm. The quenching oil is a bit slow so the face on this one is HRC 49 at the center.

I also continued shaping the diagonal peen heads for the stretching hammers, the first is on the left, I'll probably fit a shorter handle to this light head. These with the three on the right constitute my production to date.

saw hammers to date 3-20-16.jpg

Interesting.

saw hammer advertisment.JPG

Rob

Do you know the date of that advertisement/ catalogue? Most interesting.

BTW, I think some joker has been indulging in the sincerest form of flattery:

Alamo Toolworks Dog's Head Sawsmithing blacksmithing Hammer 2 | eBay

.

Regards
Paul

Hi Paul,

The advertisement is listed as 1928. 1928 Advert RARE Unusual Saw Hammers Swist Face Dog Head Saw Anvil Gummer | eBay

Several interesting things.

First is the combination hammer. Until I found the straight-peen/square face hammer I recently bought I wasn't aware that they were ever made in such configuration.

Second is the existence of saw leveling plates. Are these the so-called 'dead anvils' that have been mentioned? Were these used for the same ends as the 'blocking' step among the processes enumerated on the Disstonion description of saw manufacturing?

Third is the extremely large rectangular saw anvils that are listed, up to 18" X 60" with a maximum thickness of 8". The largest I've ever seen for sale is about 300 lbs and all of these have been relatively thick compared to their face dimensions. Using the equipment I have I could make the smaller sizes...

Fourth is the large saw hammers, up to 10 lbs, that are listed. The largest I've seen for sale is about 6 lb. Most of the saw hammers I've seen for sale are in the 3-5 lb. range with only a few at 2.5 lb or less. Judging by abundance one may speculate that there wasn't much hammering of handsaw blades going on outside of the factories.

Last, when in Rome do as the Romans do.

Cheers,
Rob

Rob,

Square face + Straight peen hammers are quite common in my experience and I own a few.

I wondered if the saw levelling plate were used as surface pates or spotting plates to check for flatness with blueing dye etc?

From what I have read on the topic mostly it has ben directed at Circular saws and bandsaws, and those were not of the workshop variety but for lumber mills on a large scale. Lumber mills employed in house saw doctors to maintain the equipment running.

There doesn't seem to be much directed to handsaw maintenance other than sharpening and setting. I guess saws weren't abused due to their expense and the skill and extra tools required for specialist hammers and anvils would be more than a few replacement saws.

Considering the thickness of saw plate I doubt you would need much thickness or weight in an anvil specifically for use on hand saws. A large circular saw blade with a plate thickness of 8mm would require something more substantial.

It is a pity there isn't greater information on saw doctors that serviced the public and local carpenters'. I wonder when the demand for them was greatest. I assume it was standard practice for people to service their owns saws as part of the trade training and it was probably a recent occurrence that the public found a need for it until ad point saws.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

Rob,

Square face + Straight peen hammers are quite common in my experience and I own a few.

I agree, I have several regular engineering/blacksmithing hammers of the combination style. I'd never encountered a combo sawsmithing hammer though.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

I wondered if the saw levelling plate were used as surface pates or spotting plates to check for flatness with blueing dye etc?

Could be. The leveling plates are described as ground on both sides - I wonder why?

Originally Posted by DSEL74

From what I have read on the topic mostly it has ben directed at Circular saws and bandsaws, and those were not of the workshop variety but for lumber mills on a large scale. Lumber mills employed in house saw doctors to maintain the equipment running.

I think that the legacy of these in-house saw doctors constitutes the majority of authentic sawsmithing equipment that's traded today.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

There doesn't seem to be much directed to handsaw maintenance other than sharpening and setting. I guess saws weren't abused due to their expense and the skill and extra tools required for specialist hammers and anvils would be more than a few replacement saws.

Probably. Given the trepidation expressed by users these days about relatively simple saw maintenance tasks such as sharpening I surmise that saw blade hammering has probably always been the preserve of a relatively small circle of specialists.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

Considering the thickness of saw plate I doubt you would need much thickness or weight in an anvil specifically for use on hand saws. A large circular saw blade with a plate thickness of 8mm would require something more substantial.

Here I differ. I've been beating up saws for a couple of years now and I put the minimum anvil weight at around 50 lbs or so. I started out with a small anvil and thought it was the business until I acquired a bigger one. The 150kg anvil, largest of my collection, is my favorite but I want a bigger one.
I'm considering making sawsmithing anvils out of air-hardening steel. The thought of a large block of 1600 ^oF steel dangling off the end of a bar or tongs has me a little intimidated but I think I can successfully handle something up to 100 lb or so.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

It is a pity there isn't greater information on saw doctors that serviced the public and local carpenters'.

Fully agree, it seems that sawsmithing was not passed on in written form. This lacuna has, IMO, been fertile soil for the mystical thinking and writing going on now about the various aspects of sawsmithing. It's relatively simple technology, no wizardry necessary. I'm working to try to fill in at least some of this information with my efforts.

Originally Posted by DSEL74

I wonder when the demand for them was greatest. I assume it was standard practice for people to service their owns saws as part of the trade training and it was probably a recent occurrence that the public found a need for it until ad point saws.

When I was young there was a sharpening shop in our town run by an older gent. When he passed on the demand for his services had declined to the point that nobody was interested in taking up his trade.

Originally Posted by rob streeper

Hi Paul,

The advertisement is listed as 1928. 1928 Advert RARE Unusual Saw Hammers Swist Face Dog Head Saw Anvil Gummer | eBay

Several interesting things.

First is the combination hammer. Until I found the straight-peen/square face hammer I recently bought I wasn't aware that they were ever made in such configuration.

Second is the existence of saw leveling plates. Are these the so-called 'dead anvils' that have been mentioned? Were these used for the same ends as the 'blocking' step among the processes enumerated on the Disstonion description of saw manufacturing?

Third is the extremely large rectangular saw anvils that are listed, up to 18" X 60" with a maximum thickness of 8". The largest I've ever seen for sale is about 300 lbs and all of these have been relatively thick compared to their face dimensions. Using the equipment I have I could make the smaller sizes...

Fourth is the large saw hammers, up to 10 lbs, that are listed. The largest I've seen for sale is about 6 lb. Most of the saw hammers I've seen for sale are in the 3-5 lb. range with only a few at 2.5 lb or less. Judging by abundance one may speculate that there wasn't much hammering of handsaw blades going on outside of the factories.

Last, when in Rome do as the Romans do.

Cheers,
Rob

Rob,
The classic text on circular and bandsaw saw hammering is...

A Treatise on the Care of Saws and Knives.
Saw and Knife Fitting Manual
Pub Covel - Hanchett.
Mine is a 1943 edition.

Everything you want to know about circular saw and bandsaw blades will be found there.

From the book,
....here is a picture with a leveling plate/block in use on a bandsaw blade. Leveling is the removal of lumps. The blocks described in the text can be as large as 72" x 14" x 6" thick.
The hole in the floor he is standing in is so he can do both the faces of the saw without flipping it. Another block is located above his head.
It is usually done with a cross face or a twist face hammer, (never with a dog head) on a cast iron plate that will eventually become concave, so it will be flipped, and turned to present a fresh face, then machined as needed.
Tensioning is done on the hard anvil, and it might be located to the left or right of the leveling plate. There are, as well as cast iron blocks, hard faced leveling blocks that can be used in place of the anvil and cast block combination for both leveling and tensioning. These may be preferred by some saw fillers.

The tools I have for handsaws were set up with an anvil and next to it a lump of what the owner called Lignum used on the endgrain face. However I believe it is Ebony since it is black, not like the Lignum I've seen locally. I have two of those blocks here. I was told at the time I bought them, a thin leather or cardboard can also be placed over the anvil when removing lumps, ridges, kinks etc.

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks very much Peter. Now I'll look for the book. Your post above exemplifies the best of what sites such as this can be - genuinely helpful and informative. Your help is greatly appreciated.

Very cool, I found one and just bought it.

I've determined that the making of anvils for sawsmithing is within my technical abilities. I'm planning 7" or 8" round anvils of between 60 and 70 pounds made from air hardening D-2 tool steel. HRC 60 or so should be attainable. Cast iron leveling blocks are also on the menu. I'm planning a video on hammering too as soon as...

BTW, looked at your website, very impressive work.

Thanks Rob,
I just went to look for the book ... a few years ago they were around $50.00 -$100.00
Just saw two on the bay for $13 or $15.00. That's cheap for the wealth of info in the book!!
Have to be careful not create a rush on them and push up the price ..... hehehe.

BTW ... do you ever sleep?
You have new stuff popping up all the time.
Just checked the time zone, it's about 9pm, thought it was after midnight.

Just a thought.... I spoke a few times by mail to Wayne Anderson of plane making fame and compared notes on our tennis elbows. Take it easy with the repetive work, and don't keep going if there is even a niggle of pain there. I had to stop making planes a while ago to preserve my time for making jewellery.
I'm paying the price for 40 + years of intensive repetitive use of shoulder, arm and hand joints.

Cheers,
Peter