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  1. #46
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    Default 1878-1888 Disston No. 77



    From what I see on the Disstonian Institute website this saw is from the second production period of No. 77's (Online Reference of Disston Saws -- No. 77 Models). The medallion appears to be characteristic of the early part of this period.



    Comparison of the un-etched 1878-1888 Disston No. 7/77 shown earlier to the instant saw reveals that the blade profile of the unmarked saw is more deeply ground.

    Looking at the variation with time it is clear that the degree of grinding became greater with each successive production period.
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

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  3. #47
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    Rob

    That's an interesting development. It looks as though there was some realisation that for "no set" saws to be easily used, even in dry joinery timbers. the clearance had to be increased. Does the taper grinding correspond to the amount of set that would be applied to a conventional saw?

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  4. #48
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    Paul,

    That's a question that I have yet to address. I've found that the smaller and thinner saws in this series have less taper, by the 1896-1918 period the saw plates of my examples all started as 0.042" thick. Earlier saws include plates down to 0.025" thick. This may explain some things that I've observed in my own productions.

    Regards,
    Rob
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  5. #49
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    OK

    That fits in with an anomaly I have seen with the Simonds brand. They did not make any "no set" back saws but their No.51 was a "no set" handsaw. I have two examples and both are one gauge thicker than normal for a 26" saw. From memory they are .042" compared to .039".

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  6. #50
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    It seems that Disston didn't start to really grind the saws heavily until the last period of production from 1896-1918. From the 1850's up until 1875 the grind depth was about 0.005" max and from 1878-1896 it was about 0.010" max. All of the saws I have dating from between the 1850's to 1896 have 0.035" or thinner saw plates. Only the thickest saws at 0.042" max thickness are ground deeper to about 0.020". In every case the minimum plate thickness was > 0.018" no matter the production period.
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  7. #51
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    Default Disston No. 77 Handsaw

    To round out this study of No. 77's here is the data for the handsaw. This saw has an 1896-1918 medallion, a 26" toothline it's toothed 8 ppi and is owner stamped J.S.Potter.

    I'd been searching for one of these for several years and two came up for auction recently. The first had been broken about three quarters of the way down the blade from the toe and the handle had been repositioned. This one came to auction the following week.




    The etch is very faint but is clear enough to confirm the model.





    The first Disston I've found that truly has a hollow ground profile, though the depth of grind at just under 0.010" is less than impressive and much less than contemporaneous No. 77 backsaws.
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  8. #52
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    Default Wenzloff 77's

    These saws both have plates that are 0.025" at the toothline. The larger saw is 16" with 8ppi / 12 ppi differential toothing. The smaller is 14" and has 12 ppi / 15 ppi toothing (Yes I counted, twice.).



    The only easily visible feature of these saws that distinguishes them from similarly sized Wenzloff backsaws is the differential toothing. He did not adopt the upper and lower double houndstooths on the handle is did Disston. None of the stampings on the back marks these saws as special. On close examination the tapering of the plate is visible looking at the toe end, but only just.

    Here are the blade profiles.

    The depth of grinding on these saws is comparable to that measured on the 1878-1888 Disston saws discussed above, one of which has a plate that is 0.005" thicker.
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  9. #53
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    I fully understand the concept of taper grinding and it is a very worthwhile feature in a handsaw or backsaw particularly if coupled with "no-set" . However, I can't see the value in hollow grinding. Surely that would only work if the spine of the saw did not go through the wood at any time during the cutting operation.

    So, on a backsaw that might be feasible (as an alternative to taper grinding) as the back automatically restricts the depth of cut, but why would you bother. On a handsaw I would think it was totally counterproductive.

    Any thoughts?

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  10. #54
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    Paul,

    I think the hollow grinding is an artifact of the grinding technique. Unless the thickness is monitored instrumentally it is relatively hard to control. A hollow ground blade, sharpened a few times, loses a significant thickness differential advantage and likely performs little better than a standard saw plate. Most of the Disston saws I've studied for this thread have set teeth, particularly the older ones which have been sharpened more, losing the thicker tooth region of the plate in the process, thus they need set to perform.

    Regards,
    Rob
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  11. #55
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    Default Disston No. 77 and 7 saw features

    Here is a family portrait of the Disston No 77's (left column and bottom) and No. 7's (right column) discussed above.




    All of the above saws have double houndstooth features at the top and bottom of their grips. The double double houndstooth feature is not however unique to the No.77 / 7 family. This feature also appears on the brass backed No. 5 saws. These saws do not have taper ground blades.




    The double double houndstooth feature of the No. 77 handsaw also features on the No 12 handsaw. However the No. 12's have wheat carving and the No. 77 does not.

    Atkins also used the double houndstooth but only at the top of the grip and these saws are also not taper ground.




    Thus,

    IF a backsaw is made by Disston and IF it has a double double houndstooth AND it has a steel back it is a taper ground No. 7 if made before the mid 1870's (split nut saws) or No. 77 if made between the mid 1870's and 1920 or so.

    IF a handsaw is made by Disston and IF it has a double double houndstooth AND it lacks wheat carving it is a No. 77.

    The Disstonian Institute pages on backsaws (Online Reference of Disston Saws -- Backsaws) and the No. 77's (Online Reference of Disston Saws -- No. 77 Models) don't mention the double double houndstooth as being a characteristic feature of these saws and in fact shows on the No. 77 page a variety of pictures and catalog drawings saws that both do and don't have this feature. I doubt however that the fact that every double double houndstooth backsaw I've collected has a taper ground plate and none of the single houndstooth handled saws does is by chance.
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  12. #56
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    The eagle eye of the sawologist.



    I like the various nuances to determine the timeline. Thanks.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    The eagle eye of the sawologist.



    I like the various nuances to determine the timeline. Thanks.

    Regards
    Paul
    Is this a religious thing ?
    Please donít tell me Tom Cruise sponsors it.

  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    The eagle eye of the sawologist.



    I like the various nuances to determine the timeline. Thanks.

    Regards
    Paul
    Paul

    There does seem to be an overlap of the #7's and the #77's in the 1878-1888 time period as I have a marked 77 from the early part of that range and an unmarked taper ground saw, the plate of which is smooth enough to reveal some trace of etch.

    The Disstonian has a copy of an 1876 era catalog showing the No. 77 but I don't have an example from that period. I haven't found or seen for sale a No. 7 from any of the later production periods.

    I suspect that somebody at Disston had the bright idea of renaming the No. 7 as No. 77's as a marketing ploy.

    I found the majority of the backsaws by looking for the double double houndstooth, only three were marked by the sellers as No. 77's . Now it seems that the supply of double double houndstooth backsaws has dried up - I haven't seen one for sale for a good while now. That's what I get for letting the cat out of the bag I suppose.

    Regards,
    Rob
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
    Is this a religious thing ?
    Please donít tell me Tom Cruise sponsors it.
    Could be, there are plenty of false idols and prophets around .
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob streeper View Post
    Here is a family portrait of the Disston No 77's (left column and bottom) and No. 7's (right column) discussed above.


    Rob

    I should have mentioned before, instead of just thinking it,that you have collected a very nice group of saws there. Thanks for showing.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

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