Thread: Saw Vice Build 2

The jointer did its thing ...

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Then I went to the lunchbox thicknesser I got very reasonably through the Marketplace. It seems that the thin disposable blades are not available any more ... when I brought it home I sharpened them a bit by hand. I bought this one because my large thicknesser cannot safely handle material shorter than the distance between the rollers, which is about 50-60cm.
I have used it a bit before, but not for a specific job - and I thought this would sort out these planks and we could move on. Argh. The depth of cut it can manage is in the order of a millimetre - not by motor power but by the arrangement of the tin and plastic at the front of the machine before the little anti-kickback claws - and it sounds like I'm standing behind a soon-to-be-dead Formula One engine, meantime taking a zillion passes to take off the smallest amount of material. Give me the big thicknesser any time. When it is running it sounds like there is a helicopter in the near vicinity, but is a low and very tolerable noise - not this god awful screaming.

Consequently I cut short the machine-torture part of the proceedings, and instead of pieces maybe 30mm thick or so just went with the 45mm I had got down to.

Excepting only one thing. I know the process - flatten a side and an edge, then thickness the depth and the height. Yup - no problem. I would stand the boards up on the face edge and run them through the thicknesser. Or not.

It wasn't until I had nearly adjusted the thicknesser to its top movement that I realised that 22cm of jarrah wasn't going through a 15cm gap. Saw time again I needed a panel marker, which had me for a second until I remembered I had made a dodgy two-nail trammel that I could turn into a dodgy three-nail panel marking gauge.

Going hi-tech here ...

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I forgot to say that I crosscut (crosscutted??) one end of each piece first ...

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I have 5 crosscut saws that have come to me professionally sharpened. Two that I can think of ... an 8pt and a 10pt ... have a wider set than I would expect in my limited experience with these things. (For hardwood)
This picture is an example of that ... the dark void of the kerf is kinda raggedy and very visible in size against the blade of the saw. A finer kerf (ie less set) will help you stick to a line like a laser. I felt uncomfortable doing that short cut ... I had to concentrate more because the kerf gave you more wiggle room to get off track.

I was about to say "I changed saws for the next cut" ... of course I did ... it was a ripcut. This long rip was more comfortable to make than that crosscut because of the finer kerf (self-guiding you could almost say).

A fine kerf ...

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So by the end of saturday ... here we had ... two bits of wood. Brilliant.

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Part of the attraction of the morticer - other than just the clamp - is that the bed moves side to side which I hope will come in handy for the sharpening.

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One thing I meant to say ... I am starting to have a good feeling about the SSB idea.

Out of the (not extensive) amount of time I spent trying to saw accurately on saturday, at least half of it was wasted because of either marking out or workholding.

When I cut the first piece in half it was longways down between two sawhorses, so there was nothing to get in the way. But when I cut a thinish piece off the two boards, it was an unsatisfying and almost constant rearrangement of position on the horses as you cut your way across - not to mention bonking into the lower stretchers some of the time.

Regarding the marking out ... this should probably be commonsense to me, but it is only starting to sink in. I say do whatever you have to to make your marks clear and precise. Marking knife, texta, pencil ... all of the above!
My dodgy panel gauge worked very well on the first piece, but either through blunting of the nail or an uneven piece of timber - the second had some places where the theoretical line diverged into three or four nearby scratches.
That might have been ok in the daylight, but light was failing and that cut came out pretty ordinary in the end.

Sunday afternoon - after work and then zonking out on the lounge - next job is to smooth and even off the non-face edge from saturday. You might be able to see the inconsistent nature of the timber ... there is a 'stream' of classically hard jarrah running along the rear side of the first plank - the rest of it being quite soft by comparison. And I had intelligently configured things so that the grain on the rear plank was running in the opposite direction.

So ... if I didn't concentrate on what I was doing, the soft material was more than happy to go away well before the hard stuff. I had to go put a decent edge on the plane iron ... glad this was the bottom of the pieces and just needed to be level.

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I also thought it would be a good idea to leave the mortice chisel in place there, rather than bother with undoing it and putting it out of the way ... " 'cos it'll only take a few minutes".

And before you ask - No ... I didn't slice my hands in seven different places and separate a tendon or two because the plane was closer to it than I thought at times.

Not that much. And I can always take up drinking.

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Anyhoos ... finally the ends to square off. I wanted a tight thin-kerf to make this cut accurately so I used a ripsaw that I knew cut close. It worked perfectly ... see the video.

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End of sunday ... body of vice completed ...

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So ... to explain ... I had the thought at some stage ... this would be after the part where I wanted to clamp a whole handsaw in one go ... "Why not clamp the whole blade?"

I am hoping this will really serve to dampen vibration ... although I haven't figured how the tapering of the blades will figure into it. I guess at worst it will only be clamped mainly at the toothline, which is what already happens, so ...

Obviously the planks need some outer shaping so that the file and hands can get near the teeth ... and I need to burrow out a section on the inside for the handles to fit into. On the left and the right if I am going to reverse only the saw instead of the whole setup ... unless I adopt a strange 'filing towards me' technique for half the teeth.

Possibly for these ripsaws I want to file, I might try filing only from this side.

In use I am currently envisioning the left-hand-side of the vice being clamped in the machine clamp, and a cam-lock or something on the right-hand-side.

Well, not a bad start ... we'll see how much happens in the week. I guess I will experiment with handle-surrounding voids when I can.

Cheers,
Paul

Oh - and I need to make a saw till for the lounge room. There are a dozen saws here that are deserving of some respect.

Uuuuuuuuuuuuhhh. Time spent sleeping is a very unsatisfactory use of one's time.
Working is of course even worse.

I did manage late-ish on Sunday to put a piece of paper over some saws and markout roughly the handles - then transfer that to the planks of the vice.
When I say 'roughly' of course I mean that a three-year old with a crayon would do about a 10% better job of it.

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Then I got out the router-with-tail. When I first decided I'd like to make a table 2 or 3 years ago, I went to Bunnings and took about an hour to come out with a router and a belt-sander. They have barely been switched on since then.

Not super keen on the noise, but better than the lunchbox thicknesser. I used a caliper to decide that the widest space I needed for handles was 26mm, so I wanted to dig out a bit over 13mm from each side. It is deeper than you (I) think.

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The second went worse than the first ... kept getting interrupted
Then I gathered what rasps and files I thought might help and smoothed it off a bit.
It was dark by then ... but hopefully try it out on monday.

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This arrangement won't work for backsaws at the moment, because it will clamp the spine and not the blade.
I'm thinking either of mining more from the planks to suit a certain depth of backsaw ... or using a shoe (or sabot) to hold the backsaw inside the bigger 'jaws'. We'll see about that later.

Originally Posted by pmcgee

This arrangement won't work for backsaws at the moment, because it will clamp the spine and not the blade.
I'm thinking either of mining more from the planks to suit a certain depth of backsaw ... or using a shoe (or sabot) to hold the backsaw inside the bigger 'jaws'. We'll see about that later.

Paul, you do like to make things hard for yourself! Most old saw vises I've seen have jaws made from pieces about 75 x 35mm. The bigger the areas you have mating, the more difficult it will be to get them truly flat, & more difficult to devise a clamping mechanism that holds them firmly along the whole length. However, I guess it can be done.

I think you will find it far easier & more satisfactory in the long run if you make one vise for full-size handsaws, and another for your back saws. The ends need to be quite narrow to fit far enough over the handles for comfortable filing of smaller backsaws.

WRT filing from one side only for ripsaws, it isn't recommended, because unless you are scrupulously careful, you introduce a tiny amount of fleam. So it's best to flip the vise for the return trip on the opposite-set teeth, & try to keep them symmetrical. I'm not sure what your vise is going to look like, but it should be easy enough to use from either side, surely?

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Paul, you do like to make things hard for yourself! Most old saw vises I've seen have jaws made from pieces about 75 x 35mm. The bigger the areas you have mating, the more difficult it will be to get them truly flat, & more difficult to devise a clamping mechanism that holds them firmly along the whole length. However, I guess it can be done.

Ha. Do you you really think I hadn't thought of that? Do you think I'd do all this messing about without having sat down and thought it through carefully? ... Actually I refuse to answer that.

My first and only saw vice was a length of pine with a kerf cut 80% of the way ( ... actually Paul Sellers shows the same on his video ) - and it would have taken me longer to make a H-frame thing with hinges and some sort of clamping that I would be happy with than it took to make two lumps of jarrah fairly straight.

I don't have a bench yet to actually clamp it on either - suppose I could always lash it to a palm tree ,
And I am curious about having a full sawblade fully clamped and filing - to see what the feel and sound is like.

And again - my focus is to get these 10 or so ripsaws filed to try out making the sawbench - with different pitches and filing patterns. I'd like to try some positive rake if there's a saw there I can play with easily enough.
Backsaws are not something I'm concerned about at the moment - I will have a dentist's light/lens here in a week or two which should help with seeing small teeth.

I was picturing clamping the left end in the morticer and using a cam-lock on the right side, but it looks like just clamping in the middle will do fine. I hit an issue in that the clamp is low, and the fence behind low, so the bottom edge was being squeezed more than the top leaving the tooth-line slightly loose. I dropped a chrome rod in the base and it has transferred the clamping very nicely. Of course now we're basically back to clamping at the top only

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There is the mass of the jarrah, so I'll try that out a bit as-is before changing anything further.

I could put in a smaller spacer at the bottom, or reshape part of the top (inside) section back to vertical in this configuration, or reshape the front 'jaw' to have a ledge at the bottom and incline back up to the top, or ...

I also haven't attached any leather to the jaws yet ... I picked up an old sofa seat a while back and pulled it apart for the leather.

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WRT filing from one side only for ripsaws, it isn't recommended, because unless you are scrupulously careful, you introduce a tiny amount of fleam. So it's best to flip the vise for the return trip on the opposite-set teeth, & try to keep them symmetrical. I'm not sure what your vise is going to look like, but it should be easy enough to use from either side, surely?
Cheers,

I can pick up the whole assembly and turn it around ... kinda painful ... or make the same relief for handles on the lefthandside ... then just the saw can be turned around. But I'm not averse to another solution either - just learning to maintain a 90degree angle.

This is the S&J 888 saw that I picked up quite a while ago now ... teeth have a bit of variation to them ... I'll see what I can do about that.

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Cheers,
Paul

Originally Posted by pmcgee

...This is the S&J 888 saw that I picked up quite a while ago now ... teeth have a bit of variation to them ... I'll see what I can do about that.

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Hmm, just a slight bit of variation, Paul. It is a goodie to practice your jointing & tooth re-forming technique on, for sure.

Not sure why you are fussing bout clamping the whole blade, me lad. Even if the jaws only meet in a thin line along the top, it should hold the saw for filing very adequately - that's the crucial part. My saw vise jaws would meet along a strip no more than 25mm wide. The most difficult part of the operation is ensuring you have even & sufficient clamping pressure all along the length of the jaws - that's the thing to work at. What looks ok clamped up like you have it may not be at all even along the whole saw when you come to use it in earnest. You can often solve that by judicious application of a clamp or two, but it's a nuisance having to do that, & best avoided if possible.

Anyways, the journey there is half the fun. Lots of fun reading about it, that's for sure!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Not sure why you are fussing bout clamping the whole blade, me lad. Even if the jaws only meet in a thin line along the top, it should hold the saw for filing very adequately - that's the crucial part.

Do you have squealing? When I was using the pine, it was at least 40mm deep but the saw would screech quite a bit in filing. This one may be overkill, but I does just what I wanted noise-wise ... except for the unsupported section at the heel, filing the teeth sounds about the same as filing a cast-iron tablesaw ... muted and satisfying.

Maybe I could get the same from a lot lighter setup ... it would be interesting to know.

I initially thought what I would like to do about a guide was to have just a thin needle attached at the handle end to indicate vertical ... like a straw from a WD40 can. I didn't have time to think about how to do that so I started with the usual horizontal indicator on the end on the file ... but I soon realised I could add a vertical indicator at that end. I had some WD40 straws set aside for this use ... and could not of course find them. So I just drilled the hole and left the bit in it.

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This had an unexpected benefit in that with the flat shoulders I still have on the jaws, and with the degree the teeth were projecting, the block at the end of the file would sit square on the rear jaw at the start of each stroke - which made it very easy to keep the orientation while filing.

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I had planned to sit on a stool and file from there, but in order to see the flats I ended up standing up next to the vice and looking down at it ...

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... holding the end of the file in my right hand and the handle in my left. (Which is arts-about for me, but worked ok)

Unfortunately you can't see the profile view of the teeth from here ... I obviously need a camera linked to a monitor

Just going down the saw taking a single stroke or so, keeping the file in the same orientation, the teeth regularised pretty quickly ... although it would be nice to see from the side and the top at the same time.
Eyes on stalks may be a solution.

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Initial jointing ...

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After a few passes ...

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Originally Posted by pmcgee

Do you have squealing? When I was using the pine, it was at least 40mm deep but the saw would screech quite a bit in filing. This one may be overkill, but I does just what I wanted noise-wise ... except for the unsupported section at the heel, filing the teeth sounds about the same as filing a cast-iron tablesaw ... muted and satisfying.

No, I certainly don't put up with screeching. If saws screech the jaws aren't closing properly. I think we may be confuddling a couple of issues here, Paul. The jaws need to be big enough that they are sufficiently stiff that they don't bend when clamped up at only one or two points, which would put uneven pressure on the saw blade. Big chunks of wood are also great dampeners - they will tend to soak up any vibrations that will occur in any spots where the clamping pressure is a bit light. But no amount of dampening will compensate for wonky jaws that have gaps sufficient to allow deflection of the teeth under the force applied by the file.

The way I see it, it is desirable to have both a dampening effect and a firm grip on the saw plate, as close to the filing point as possible. Then the force of the file is working against a very short lever, and is less likely to cause chatter. The thinner the saw plate, the closer I want to get to the bottom of the gullets.

So heavy jaws = good, but there will be a size where you get the best bang for buck. I'm not advocating you reduce your jaws, they are possibly heavier than absolutely needed, but that's better than too light. If you are getting nice firm filing now, I'd reckon you have got your jaws closing nicely on the topmost part of the saw, so all is good - keep going.......

Cheers,

I haven't removed *all* of the flats ... I didn't want to start getting the teeth out of shape again.
I took it out to evaluate what state it is in.

It's cool to see all the bright teeth, but it's not in a finished state yet I don't think.

I tried cutting with it. I didn't add any set and it makes a tight kerf - but the only material it cut fairly satisfyingly was some 19mm floorboard. It has a high rake angle and that makes for a pretty wimpy-assed ripsaw.

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I'll do a few others and see how they go before coming back to this one.
It might become the 5pt crosscut I want to make.

Cheers,
Paul

I got a start on two 4-1/2pt saws this evening.

One was a disston d8 with level toothline, nowhere near properly sharp, and a current rake not far from the S&J 888.

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The other was a ? Keystone Pacemaker ? or similar - maybe 1960s. Ugly It was hollow in the centre section, but was 'sharp' somewhat ... to run your hand along the teeth. It was one of a dozen saws PH and I bought from an old guy down this way.

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I first tried them out on same floorboard as a benchmark. Ten strokes with each saw twice. Pretty damn ugly.

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Some of the teeth on the d8 ... sharpen 4 1-2 pt (a) 013.jpg sharpen 4 1-2 pt (a) 011.jpg

and the 'K' saw with a rake closer to zero. sharpen 4 1-2 pt (a) 016.jpg sharpen 4 1-2 pt (a) 017.jpg