Thread: Chisel Hardness Study, the first step.

I think It makes sense that the effective useful hardness goes along with the alloying elements and carbon content... If you push your carbon into Iron carbides - you can still sharpen it on most stones even when quite high carbon and when it's fairly hard..... But when you push your carbon into W, Cr, V, and Mo carbides with modern alloy steels - the carbides are so hard that you can't sharpen them effectively on regular silica based stones until they are down into the 58-59 range...

And so not only do they feel gummy on the stones because of the alloy - they feel gummy on the stones because they are soft.

So for example - the CPM HSS I was fooling for chisel and plane iron tips with was up at Rc 64 range.... And I had a horrible time trying to sharpen it - even on my diamond plates.... That stuff would wear grooves right into wheels and regular stones... Perhaps things would have been different if I had a way to temper it back down to the 59-60 range...

HSS does well in hand tools at 59-60 hardness, but it doesn't hold an initial edge well at that hardness.

AS you suspect, it sharpens fine on most stones when it's that soft. I can sharpen turning tools on regular woodworking stone (the non-CPM type). The seem to be a bit soft, probably because that makes them easier to grind and tougher on impact from spinning objects.

I may have said it earlier here, but I suspect that the tungsten HSS items made in the early 1900s are quite fine and nice to use, much different than the molybdenum steel that's common now (which works well for industrial process, but isn't a great blade steel - but it's cheaper than tungsten steels, which is why it was developed - perfectly understandable).

I got a very old (pre WWII) high speed steel iron this year and expected that it would be a bear to deal with, but in reality, it turned out to be a touch soft and it's a delight. I don't know that I'd be able to tell it from oil hardening steel. I suspect that it's a tungsten HSS.

Anything 64 hardness is problematic to sharpen if it's solid. Once you go to that hardness AND hss, it also becomes slow to grind, which makes it a real drag.

All of these things you're looking at are why most woodworkers who do a lot of hand work tend to move toward carbon steel in a certain range (save the japanese tool users who are obsessed with trying to work all day at a site without sharpening, because they believe it's inconsiderate).

I'm no better or worse than any other woodworker, but I've gotten overly fascinated with this topic because I started out with the laser flat, ice hard, kind of thought process and bought some vintage tools along the way and have moved completely toward them. Not out of anything other than just preference in use. This has been a relatively useful discussion, even though I think where this goes is not practical for current makers of tools (because the market doesn't know what you're finding out and usually doesn't have the perceptivity to care). I've had it often on other forums, and i usually run into an engineer who starts on the same thing "cast steel is the cheap steel, it's not that great, ...", and the only thing those folks are really short of is actual experience woodworking. They also have determined that all old tools are inferior with large inconsistent grain structure (I guess they're thinking of the titanic hull or something) and inconsistent hardness, but again, the one thing they're lacking is actually working with them in a cycle of work.

I think you'll find that as you work more with these tools, unless you're working somewhere that things rust, these types of tools will become preferred. I struggle to find somewhere to use alloyed steels now, because they're not longer lasting in the context of experienced users, and they don't have that sweetness on a leather strop and on the stones that the very plain steels do.

In the context of "experienced users" - probably almost any average quality chisel will last probably well past 3 or 4 lifetimes....

I do like the direction of this thread as well... The quest to figure out what actually makes a good chisel a good chisel... There are enough makers of the past who successfully made hundreds of thousands of good chisels - even perhaps millions.... So there is a path to replicate the best quality tools of the past that's knowable and reproducible at a large manufacturing scale... And there are enough modern chisel makers (even made of medium and high alloy steels) which make quality product to know that all is not lost.....

I have a feeling that most of the inconsistency we saw with Blue Spruce is related to cutting chisel blanks out of plate and not having the rolled grain orientation correct... Probably their supplier found it "more efficient" to cut blanks out of a plate crossgrain than long grain... And even with "cross rolled" plate - the crossgrain compressive strength is only 50-70% of the long grain... Aka - an edge would fail with relatively little effort even though "the hardness is the same"... LN solved this by machining their chisels out of round bar....

I do have considerable sympathy for the "Old tools are junk" view. As on average - the old tools I have received have been pretty miserable. No better than Aldi chisels... It's only in the last 2 weeks that I have re-focused my efforts and have come up with 2 or 3 chisels which appear to be good.... The trouble is that they are hard to find and can be quite expensive - if for no other reason that you have to buy a pile containing significant "chaff" to get the "wheat", bad handles, and a huge amount of prep work to clean them back up... Fortunately - that will hopefully provide ample incentive for new makers to replicate them....

Thanks

I think the "old tools" issue is a matter of knowing what aspects were present on well made tools. I fielded this issue from a planemaker in the US a couple of months ago, and in my experience, if you get a recognized name (marples, for example) old enough to have an octagonal bolster and a good finish, you'll find something that doesn't resemble the modern marples chisels (it's much better).

That's complicated by the fact that a lot of the older chisels were kept in shape by experienced users, which means they were kept in shape well enough to work, but they're not perfectly flat, etc, and if someone attempts to do with them what Rob has done with the backs of the chisels, they'll be tortured. If they do a minimal amount of work with the backs (and coarsely if they have to, leaving the finest of the finish on the back to be completed in the course of regular sharpening), then they'll be fine.

But looking for the holy grail, which is a little used well proportioned reputably named octagonal bolster chisel without significant rust history - that's fairly rare.

But they are consistently good, perhaps 20% of them not being acceptable at the very most (sometimes you find out why something like that is little used). If you get mixed makers, then the hardness may vary (which bothers some people).

Curious, though, when you say old chisels are pretty miserable on average, are you referring to something like mid 1900s marples construction type chisels, socket (construction) chisels from that era or earlier, or specifically the kind of chisels that we're talking about now (the cabinetmaking chisels with tangs and octagonal bolsters?).

By the way, I don't think chisels of this narrow definition, which would've been the standard for cabinetmaking, can be made economically these days.

More common is the cut and finished flat stock stuffed into a handle and given a ferrule (like blue spruce). On average, the market will see the handle on the blue spruce chisel and the shiny bits, and not recognize that they are structurally inferior (my opinion) to the older forged bolster chisels.

There's no reason that the forged bolster quality couldn't have continued into the time when marples, et al, went to CV steel and appears to have either made chisels from drill rod or from a die forge (then rotary finished around the tang and bolster) with a round bolster. But they just didn't do it. No knowledge of the business at the time when that change occurred - maybe they were in the death throes, but the otherwise attractive 8 piece set of round bolster chisels that I got (including nice boxwood handles) includes several that would've been completely unusable, but are quite nice to use after a quick heat, quench and color-based temper.

the other side of this is that if you made chisels like this with a relatively thin blade (intended to be gripped at the handle), you'd instantly get forum criticism where "trusted reviewers" mentioned other "more meaty chisels", like the LN chisels. If you were doing cabinet work all day, you'd probably prefer to *not* have thick cross section stanley 750 copies, but the average paying user is probably a white collar middle-age person who will use their chisels every two months. They're not going to notice, and probably won't develop the coordination to pull a chisel into a marking line without using two hands.

However, if you make a well finished heavy chisel out of alloy steel and make it 65 hardness, there will be tons of people lining up to buy it because it's "strong and hard".

Originally Posted by D.W.

Curious, though, when you say old chisels are pretty miserable on average, are you referring to something like mid 1900s marples construction type chisels, socket (construction) chisels from that era or earlier, or specifically the kind of chisels that we're talking about now (the cabinetmaking chisels with tangs and octagonal bolsters?).

I went through a pile of old rusty thrift store and flea market finds.... The "grails" of 5-10 years ago were old socket chisels - and that's mostly what I tried in a bunch of old brands... I did end up with a bunch of "old" round bolster tang chisels - which in hindsight those aren't really "old" - just rusty, old looking used modern stuff from post-1954 or so.... Probably a few octagon bolster chisels ended up in the mix too - none were impressive... Sold them all off and was happy to see them go... Even as of 2 months ago - I ended up with a "G Sheldon" big old 1" socket chisel.. It's on par with the other ones I am not impressed by...

But the Moulson and my Ward - I am impressed by these... They are ugly but they work very well....

Yes on the socket chisels. They're generally not that great, and the advice to go seek them out as great chisels was ill advised. They're generally construction chisels - no cabinetmaker would tolerate a short handle that separates easily from the chisel.

No clue who Sheldon is, but the chisel was probably intended to work green wood.

Anything that has a reputable sheffield (or US) name of reasonable age with a forged bolster should be a good chisel. I'm not sure if I've had a bad one, though I've found plenty that are worn out or that haven't been sharpened well and have a really big belly on the back. I'm guessing at the 20% number above, but I couldn't point out a bad one that I've actually had - in terms of sharpen, use, examine edge, resharpen, etc.

I've had a lot of bad socket chisels. The worst are chrome craftsman chisels, but there are plenty of other mediocre chisels along with that, including some very old. I've had a couple that were good, but they were too bulky to use seriously. Strangely enough, they're not hard to sell on ebay if they are of any reasonable edge quality (they could be sold otherwise, too, but I refuse to pass along a chisel that I can't sharpen and use well without saying it's junk).

I tried heating and hammering a lakeside chisel and grinding it into a knife - a chisel that I had that was no good. The knife is OK, but the steel is still no good. The only virtue is the ground shape and that sometimes, you can use a knife that isn't perfect. Using a dud chisel is unrewarding.

Of the maybe 75-100 (again, guessing) octagonal bolster chisels I've come across, only one was in the range of aldi for edge holding - an old butcher chisel. It's the softest one I have...

..if pressed, I'd say that one is actually something I couldn't tolerate if I had other options....so maybe revise the statement above to 1.

I haven't ever given it enough of a chance to see if someone just overheated it, though. i've had three that are almost identical to it that were a pure pleasure to use. They sharpened to a super bright polish and released their wire edges immediately.

(I don't have the aldi branded chisels, but HF sold them about 10 years ago here - $1 each on sale - and then they got replaced by that round-handled set they have now, which I'd never buy on purpose, except maybe to use a wide one to glaze windows.)

This thread is my last hurrah talking about chisels on forums, though. It's a never ending loop, and I always run into an engineer who says that the performance of old ward chisels is just peoples' imagination and that they don't match any modern chisel. It's tiring. Same with marples. People think that experience with blue handled marples means they'll know how a 125 year-old chisel performs and they can make the same statement. It's pretty rare for an "expert" who brings up technical papers as their defense to actually go out and get those chisels, and when they do, they complain that they're not optical flat or close like the premium chisels these days, and that "that's a sure sign of low quality".

Same goes for carbon steel plane irons. Every serious hand tool user that I know uses almost entirely carbon steel irons, because this same pattern of even wear exists on planes. it takes only one or two "engineering experts" to describe a ward parallel iron based on their experience with a stanley iron from 1950.

David,
I have a hunch that a lot of what you have run into is that I think there is a lot of desire on the forums to keep "The Great" old brands and tools, as well as how specifically to identify them kinda under wraps... You have probably seen this with some great old forgotten thing being "Named" and all of a sudden prices triple within a week and collectors suck them all up...

And so they sick the attack dogs on you because you are openly talking about their secrets..... And that makes their favorite chisels go from $5 to $100 over night....

For example - I tried to get some feedback on a couple other forums on which specific old chisels to buy, what eras, and how to identify them.. Certainly people know this.. But the threads instantly died.... I even put up an open offer to buy a mixed grab-bag of user "Known Good User" chisels... No takers, though I did end up with a couple vague PM's asking what brands I was looking for (I didn't know - that's why I asked the group..).... When I replied that I was simply looking for some very good old chisels but I didn't really know anything about brands - it went nowhere....

I was surprised - because I figured perhaps a couple collectors/enthusiasts would see it as an opportunity to unload some stuff that is good but doesn't really have a lot of market value or low demand... Or stuff that's in rough condition but still has a lot of life left in it... Nope!

I'm not surprised by that, I suppose. One thing I've run into over the years is that when I voiced a problem with something (a saw or something similar), the only people who wanted to "help" were yardsale shoppers who wanted to dump some junk off on me. Not true tool dealers, but the kind of folks who spend a lot of time searching yard sales on saturdays and come back to the forum Sunday morning with 10 things to sell. Nothing was ever great, and sometimes it was outright junk - with one exception - there was a guy who called himself clint jones on woodnet and everything he sold me was what he said it was.

The other ones....I kid you not, I had a saw that had a wave in it, and one of those sellers (woodnet at the time) sold me another saw - these were backsaws - and said "I guarantee I have a saw for you that isn't junk like the one you have". He sent me a saw in the mail that wasn't half as straight as the first one that I had. Any time he got called out, he said "let's see you spend your time going out on the weekends and do better", and a bunch of dogpilers jumped on with him.

Those types are glad to show you their prized items (which is what most are doing, trying to pick up 10 things, keep 1 and have the rest of the lot pay for it plus a little), but they never sell the good stuff, and if they do, it's 1 1/2 times market.

As for the other side of it, the spec sheet experts, they're willing to tell you how you *have* to sharpen something, things like "you can't get a good edge without a guide", and any time you mention how well the older tools work in the context of actual work, they show you bar charts from crucible.

Cliff Stamp dismantled this on the knife side years ago, but it persists some in woodworking. And it has little to do with getting work done. i'm sorry to say that on the sharpening stone side, I always said "you can sharpen with anything", but talked in great detail about the difference in various stones, which caused people to come back with "that one's the best, then". I chased hard plane irons early on, too, and then tried to figure out how to get A2 to stop chipping (high total angle) and never really got a full grasp of all of this until I started making my own planes, and found that an old butcher iron in the right plane design can remove a greater volume of material than M2 in a medium hardwood, because M2 never comes in a plane design that is intended (or well made) for more than smoothing.

Most of the people who are where I am now drop out of talking on the forums, because they want to spend their time making. I'm sort of getting toward that. Talking about it sharpens my thoughts on it, but I have pretty much a full setup that works well (at least for working totally by hand) and can make the ancillary tools as part of the process, so talking about it over and over only feeds my ocd and desire to repeat thoughts, but it doesn't leave me making anything.

(I do still want to make some chisels, but that's pretty far down the line. In the interim, I want to start making guitars - or have started - only for me, but well. I should be cutting ebony to make a gramil and a rosette cutter instead of typing about chisels!!).

Spread the word about the old octagonal bolster chisels, though. Even if they can't be made in something as dry as old cast steel, awfully good versions could be made of O1 at 61 hardness.

(Of course, for joinery, I think the AI chisels are just about perfect, and people still complain about them at $27 per, because the ferrules come off when they dry in the air here in the states. I guess they can't think far enough ahead to put a dab of glue on them and put them back in place. Of all of the reasons to criticize a chisel....that has to be one of the most purse-carrying toenail-painting complaints anyone could come up with).

I am going to tell you a dirty little not-so-secret... Something most people don't really recognize.

There are paid enthusiasts participating in the forums... These enthusiasts are paid to maintain a very favorable opinion of their companies product lines... These may also be involved with diminishing the perceived market position of competitors products.... I work for a very big company and I have met these people at my own company... They are generally good people and often are actual real life enthusiasts... This can also mean paid sponsorship rather than being an outright employee... Some also work for marketing companies - and the marketing companies are paid by the companies..

But - these people are not required to disclose their affiliations or paid positions....

And so when something interesting comes along - these pop up and throw some rocks at all other efforts and concerns going and turn the discussion to the superiority of their chosen brand.... That's generally all it takes to roust the Fan Boy troops to do the dirty work for you...

And if a brand is buying bright, glossy magazine ads and sponsoring online and TV content - they certainly have online forum helpers who are involved in the plight...

99% chance you ran afoul of a number of these folks without realizing it..

Originally Posted by d.w.

.... So talking about it over and over only feeds my ocd and desire to repeat thoughts, but it doesn't leave me making anything.

............................. (: ~}

Originally Posted by truckjohn

There are paid enthusiasts participating in the forums...

Not on these forums!

We call them out if we start to get any of that.

The protocol is declare any pecuniary or other interest so the contributions can be judged accordingly.

Even our sponsors are very well behaved and don't get any privileges when it comes to pushing barrows. They would get the same treatment if they did.

Neil,
I have noticed this and very much appreciate it.

For example - I am very well aware that on some other forums - the mere mention of the possibility that a Craftsman chisel or a $12 hardware store Buck Bro's being able to go toe to toe with some premium name brands would start a war and would end up with the thread getting shut down

Here's a "mere mention:" The Stanley #51 spokeshave has a blade that can't cut butter. I paid $50. Because I tried to sharpen it, I can't return it. It is junk.

Next, I paid $16.00 for an adjustable Samona spoke shave. The iron body casting needed an hour's refitting.
The blade? Absolutely sings in the wood (birch). Even my old ears can hear it.
So, I bought a second Samona a week later. Same thing. If anything, the body casting was even worse.
I have one set for thick and one set for thin.

To carve from a square blank to a sort-of round shaft, I have to count shaving strokes on each corner to get it sort of even.
Best estimate is that I have pulled those cheap spokeshaves more than a mile in birch. Fun all the way.