Thread: breaking covid rules

11am Press conference the question is asked re the tight new mask restrictions in the red LGAs and possible exemptions. The answer was there will be no exemptions as exemptions can be confusing to understand and hard to police.

12.42pm they announce exemptions to these “blanket” restrictions

Looking like a lot longer than the four weeks announced.

Originally Posted by D.W.

May be time to take a vacation to the states. We're generally walking around maskless here in and out of doors and there's little covid around (even the delta variant, which is present, but isn't spreading here like it is elsewhere because we've mostly got mrna vaccines and much of the rest of the population has had covid.

I don't know if you can get pfizer or moderna there, but if you can, have a couple of shots of it and head over here to the beach. It's like the old days.

Good thing I didn't follow that advice

US averaging 57,000 new COVID-19 cases per day due to delta variant - YouTube

Originally Posted by D.W.

May be time to take a vacation to the states. We're generally walking around maskless here in and out of doors and there's little covid around (even the delta variant, which is present, but isn't spreading here like it is elsewhere because we've mostly got mrna vaccines and much of the rest of the population has had covid.

I don't know if you can get pfizer or moderna there, but if you can, have a couple of shots of it and head over here to the beach. It's like the old days.

based on media reporting, Pfizer jabs won't be widely available in Australia till the middle of 2022.

Originally Posted by doug3030

Good thing I didn't follow that advice

US averaging 57,000 new COVID-19 cases per day due to delta variant - YouTube

BUT
almost all of those cases (>99.9%) are being detected among the large proportion of the US population who believe that Covid is a Democratic plot and consequently are declining to bother with getting the "jab". The "good news"(?) is that by getting Covid for real, the cohort who "don't trust the government" may inadvertently increase the effectiveness of the US vaccination strategy by developing immunity without getting the jab.

Based on what I've seen and read, I highly doubt that the US will ever achieve a vaccination rate greater than about 60% of those eligible.
There's just too many people who "don't trust the government".



But more importantly,
at 57,000 new cases per day, the risk of being detected* with Covid is currently about 17.3 per 100,000 (daily) -- that's about 5x the risk of getting a blood clot (for those under 50) from the AstraZeneca jab. I'm not currently on top of the outcome severity for being "detected" with Covid. The reported death data is too skewed by those folks in old persons care.
* I won't equate "detection" with "catching" Covid as, like what is being reported for Sydney, you don't get tested for the disease unless you are really worried you have already have caught Covid.

Originally Posted by Warb

unfortunately, the AZ vaccine has been crucified by the media to the extent that nobody wants it. We are now getting information that is very muddled - "we can't get the vaccine" does not necessarily mean "we can't get ANY vaccine", it might mean "we can't get Pfizer".

Not the same thing, and it might be unfair to blame the government (or anyone else) for ordering a product that was the right product at the time, but has now become unpopular.

As it stands, my wife will shortly be getting 300 doses of AZ delivered (the current minimum order) but has only 25 people who want it......

Warb
living (and working) in the Central West, have you seen a marked uptake in the willingness of your customers to get the AstraZeneca jab?
e.g. of the 300 doses your wife ordered, how many have been administered?
are you actually "delivering" 10 doses per AZ vial into arms, or are you administering what you can and tossing the unused shots away at the end of each day?

a few days ago, I saw a report on the ABC News that one of those who had recently died from Covid had received their 1st shot back in April, but were waiting for the Pfizer vaccine to be available before getting their second shot.




Also, ABC News was reporting in the last week that the Moderna mRNA vaccine, when it eventually becomes available, will need to have any unused shots disposed of the day the vial is taken out of the freezer and thawed out.

Originally Posted by ian

Warb
living (and working) in the Central West, have you seen a marked uptake in the willingness of your customers to get the AstraZeneca jab?
e.g. of the 300 doses your wife ordered, how many have been administered?
are you actually "delivering" 10 doses per AZ vial into arms, or are you administering what you can and tossing the unused shots away at the end of each day?

Yes, we have certainly seen an increase in the number of people wanting AZ, or anything else. We still have the out and out anti-vaxxers, to whose number has now been added the "I'm not getting it until they pay me" people (there are other words to describe them!) who have latched on to the monetary incentive concept that the press have been talking about. [As an aside, my god what are the media and authorities thinking, what a precedent to set, "don't bother doing the right thing, if you wait long enough you'll get paid to do it!". Crazy.]

The pharmacy is also getting hundreds of calls each day from people wanting the vaccine. They are still dealing with callers politely, but the veneer is wearing thin;

Caller - "My dad is 92 and he needs a vaccination, the government have really f**ked this up"
Pharmacist - "The vaccination clinic was open for people of his age since April, and we had mobile clinics visiting regularly, why didn't he get it back then?"
Caller - "We didn't want it then, but we do now. The government are useless"
Pharmacist - "Well we're really sorry, but we're now booked solid for the next two months"
Caller - "The government have made a......"
Pharmacist - "Sorry"..... hangs up phone... "Yes, that's the governments fault, no doubt about it..... Moron...."

Together with assorted "I MUST have it NOW, I'm a healthcare worker at the old people's home", which had a clinic visit months ago and had Pfizer left over and thrown away because many staff and residents didn't want it. (They phoned around and managed to find volunteers to soak up a few spare doses).


The answer to the rest of that question is, um, "complicated". By the rules, the person giving the vaccination should sit down and go through the details of the shot, and the possible side effects, with the patient, and get their "fully informed" written consent. They also have to complete all the online (and some paper based) forms so the vaccination is registered for the client. A small number of people just say "yes", but many/most people have a great many questions, which take time to answer.* Once the injection has been given, the client has to sit for 15 minutes before they are allowed to leave. The shop, under covid-safe guidelines, has a maximum capacity which includes staff, people being injected, people waiting after their injection and other customers.... The result of all this is that to do the job properly, following all the regulations, is actually quite time consuming. Just out of interest, it is also a loss making process given the very low payment the pharmacy gets for each vaccination, unless they speed the process up by (ahem) "rushing" the consent process. Of course pharmacists, like everyone else, vary between those who will kill themselves to do the best job they can (my wife) and those who will cut every possible corner to make more money. Putting that all together, every single vial that has been opened in our pharmacy has been injected into an arm - even when people have not shown up or for some other reason have not received their planned jab those doses have been stuck in to people on the subs bench. On the other hand, we know of pharmacies who are opening several vials first thing in the morning and then throwing away most of it. Sadly the government at present doesn't seem concerned by this because (contrary to what the media would have us believe) we have far more AZ than we have arms to put it in!

*People tend to see pharmacists (real ones, perhaps not the "Chemists Whorehouse" factory workers) as more approachable than doctors or nurses. The result is that pharmacists often spend a great deal of time talking to clients about their medications, when the clients were too sacred/shy/confused (etc.) to discuss it with the doctor who wrote the script! The same applies to vaccinations, many people would rather go to the pharmacist who they can talk to, so the process becomes much more time consuming.

So in short, they have delivered 100% (in fact slightly more, because the vial is 10 doses plus a wastage allowance, which they use!) of all vaccine opened, they are seeing a massive increase in demand, and they are fully booked for the next two months. Given the low payment, it is simply not worth attempting to employ additional qualified "vaccinators" because it's a loss making endeavour. [Note that doctors are paid their normal consultancy fee in addition to any vaccination payment, so for them it's worthwhile to employ extra staff to increase the throughput].

Originally Posted by ian

a few days ago, I saw a report on the ABC News that one of those who had recently died from Covid had received their 1st shot back in April, but were waiting for the Pfizer vaccine to be available before getting their second shot.

Not sure how accurate that is (although it's believable, sadly) because we are still supposed to get "matching" shots, and the records show which 1st shot you had....... Some people are mucking about because the media at various times has reported that a mixed dose is more efficacious, but currently 2 of "whatever you can get" is better than 1 and a long wait...

Originally Posted by ian

Also, ABC News was reporting in the last week that the Moderna mRNA vaccine, when it eventually becomes available, will need to have any unused shots disposed of the day the vial is taken out of the freezer and thawed out.

Moderna (unopened) is stored at 2C to 8C for up to 30 days after defrosting, but only 12 hours at 2c to 25C after opening, and there are 15 doses per vial. We are supposed to be getting Moderna in September, and she's been talking about doing a few Sunday sessions specifically for "at risk" younger people. Mind you she's also been talking about selling the pharmacy, or just shutting it and walking away, because so many people have abandoned any semblance of civility and common sense!

Should line people up, all in a room 10, 20 or 50 at a time.... explain everything to everyone, ask the room questions, then pop them all in the arm.... bang bang bang.

None of this namby-pamby, one-on-one crap.

Then NEXT! for the next 50....

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Should line people up, all in a room 10, 20 or 50 at a time.... explain everything to everyone, ask the room questions, then pop them all in the arm.... bang bang bang.

None of this namby-pamby, one-on-one crap.

Then NEXT! for the next 50....

But all the snowflakes would complain that they do not want to ask personal questions in front of everyone.

Tricky, isn't it? Because as Doug says (I suspect sarcastically!), people don't want to ask health questions in public - perhaps they don't want everyone to know that they had a heart attack 6 months ago, or that they have an allergy which they think might make them more likely to have a reaction, but they still want to find out what difference their condition might make. Also, of course, 50 people social distancing at 4smq per person is a big room, you'd have to shout! And, more seriously, if you inject 50 at a time and (god forbid) you are unlucky enough to get multiple people with anaphylaxis, what the hell do you do?

The whole situation is very complex. Many people don't really understand what's going on, some are scared, some are over-reacting (in either direction) and many make the mistake of reading/believing the media, or worse "social media". And that's before you try to cater for the lunatic fringe!!

Queue Monty Python "Nail 'em up, I say. Nail some sense in to 'em.."

Its the lunatic fringe that gets traction because of statistically insignificant (?) issues such as anaphylaxis and blood clotting.

If 50 can't be done simultaneously (of which I was being arbitrary/facetious), why not 10. Ten is better than one.

And why not 50? What are the incidences of anaphylaxis.... is it so common that 50 can't be done? Curious questions.

Why not have 50 people in the room to get immunised? They don't have the disease! Bit late for an immunisation while in the throws of not breathing

Why not get 50 in the room and let 10 people self-prune themselves for that round as they want to know more?* Make them friggin wait..... get the majority done. This is what the whole herd-immunity thing is right?

Maybe I'm just silly.



* how hard is it to have a FAQ which answers 95% of all questions? Read it before one even turns up....

Great sign that should be all over billboards and in newspaper adverts.

467AA315-9373-4486-9C02-729C1617B114.jpeg

Originally Posted by woodPixel

If 50 can't be done simultaneously (of which I was being arbitrary/facetious), why not 10. Ten is better than one.
....
And why not 50? What are the incidences of anaphylaxis.... is it so common that 50 can't be done? Curious questions.
.....
* how hard is it to have a FAQ which answers 95% of all questions? Read it before one even turns up....

The local Government "immunisation centre" does about 6 at a time (6 nurses giving shots), and they have a doctor on hand for any emergencies (a tiny number of people have a reaction to almost any injection, not just covid). They also have a very large room (actually a hall at the showground) so can have a large pre and post waiting area without social distancing issues. They also have separate nurses to do the check-ins, so the consent process is significantly quicker (the nurse vaccinator does ONLY the consent and a small amount of data entry, the receptionist does most of the data entry). They therefore have a much higher throughput, most of which until recently was wasted drinking coffee! As for a FAQ, well I believe there is one but sadly most people would rather believe what their mate said in the pub; the value of a FAQ when up against "mates" and social media is very much reduced.

There's a few other things to note, however. Firstly those staff in the government facility are hourly paid, they don't have to make a profit. Which is lucky because until recently they've been sitting around with nothing to do - in fact a report I read (in the ever-trustworthy media, but supposedly quoting government data) said that even the week before last, in Sydney, a government facility injecting AZ had 50% unused appointments - the staff are being paid to wait for the occasional patient! In a pharmacy situation, the pharmacy is paid by the injection. If it takes 2 minutes and you do 30 an hour you make money. But if you do the job properly and do 4 an hour you make a loss. [Edit: I'm talking about number of shots per "vaccinator", not just the total number, and I'm using random figures just as examples!]. How you view this depends on whether you are the concerned patient, the already vaccinated person being locked down because of the "vaccine hesitant", the greedy business owner or the conscientious healthcare professional.......

When all's said and done, the biggest issue is still that the media scared the hell out of people with the "AZ will kill you dead" reports, so people didn't get the vaccine months ago. Even now there are people who are waiting for Pfizer because they think it's "better", whilst others are panicking and blaming the world for their own lack of preparedness. Still others are continuing to say covid is a hoax (we hear that every day!).

Being able to give many vaccines is only relevant if you have many arms to put them in!!

I was entitled to the vaccine and booked in back in April. When I was already at the doctor he told me to see the front desk and make the appointment. Appointment made 6 weeks into the future for the astra Zeneca shot. Someone from the front desk called me the day before and said I was not entitled to it and would not stop talking before hanging up the phone. I literally did not say a word.

So I thought I would register online

The online QLD portal said I was entitled to a shot. I entered my email and phone number but that was 2 months ago and I have not heard a thing. It a confirmation nothing. Others I have spoken to said the got the same lack of response

I really don’t understand how this works, from I I have been told you don’t book and just show up and you get a shot. This seems insane to do this during a pandemic when systems exist to book.


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I'm not sure of the ages of many here, but I'd wager we are all in the "doomed of you catch it" group.

You all should be getting pushy for a shot. Canute can only hold back this tide for so long. Check my video from above.

I went to South America for a while in the early 90's. I saw poverty and disease there like I'd never seen. I absolutely don't need to be pushed into vaccination!

People hesitating are fools. They will die. Long COVID is a thing. Its serious.

I'd wager many of our USA forumites know of someone no longer with us.

I saw this on Reddit last week

part 1.jpg part 2.jpg