Thread: breaking covid rules

Originally Posted by ian

that's a very inefficient virus.
55% of people infected combined with a 70 - 80% fatality rate suggests that the Peter May's "bird flu" virus will die out very quickly.

I don't feel like doing the maths, but May's virus has a lot of similarities with Ebola. Very high death rate among the infected - but give the virus a week or so and there'll be no one left to infect.

Book fizzled out - a bit like the virus.
Disappointing, as it started out quite well but then it turns into a detective story with the usual over dramatic impossible climax - clearly written spruking for a movie script.

Originally Posted by Lyle

Maybe they, the cops, just wanted to see that you had a mask on you. My understanding is that when doing "strenuous" exercise you don't need to be masked up, but rather still need to have a mask on your person.

Yeah maybe, they didn't hang around to explain the rules to us. We pulled masks out of pockets and they kept driving.

Originally Posted by Picko

Yeah maybe, they didn't hang around to explain the rules to us. We pulled masks out of pockets and they kept driving.

sounds like you were all squared away then.


Mask on person, not on face = exercising.


sounds like the wallopers were exercising their discretion.

so nothing to worry about.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

We are getting a little off topic here, but I believe procreation has been modified by a few things. Firstly the older generations had not really worked out how to stop births other than abstinence: This was also coupled (ooops, that was an unfortunate phrase) with high birth and and infant mortality rates......

Added to this, according to my 16 year old daughter, is the fact that young people are constantly being told that previous generations have wrecked the planet, that climate change is largely irreversible, and that the future of the human race is rather grim. If that is true (and apparently that is the view the school system and social media is pushing at her generation) she sees no reason to have kids, and sees that as the prevailing opinion of her peers. It is her belief therefore that in addition to the financial and lifestyle constraints kids create, there is a feeling of "what's the point?" when it comes to the future of the species.....

Originally Posted by Warb

Added to this, according to my 16 year old daughter, is the fact that young people are constantly being told that previous generations have wrecked the planet, that climate change is largely irreversible, and that the future of the human race is rather grim. If that is true (and apparently that is the view the school system and social media is pushing at her generation) she sees no reason to have kids, and sees that as the prevailing opinion of her peers. It is her belief therefore that in addition to the financial and lifestyle constraints kids create, there is a feeling of "what's the point?" when it comes to the future of the species.....

Warb

That is interesting. we are getting off topic again, but as that has not really stopped me in the past I see no reason to depart from my path. I have a young friend who is fifteen, very bright (annoyingly so at times) and she expresses the view, that despite her elevated intelligence, has zero chance of getting a job when she reaches adulthood. I have frequently pondered, "where the f*&# is this coming from." Your comments now lead me to think that it may be promoted at school and or the media, but then I feel that all this is contrary to the essence of schooling so is that really the case?

I am a little mystified. I also tend to despair when I hear that the baby boomers are responsible for the mess we are in, but that is definitely a topic for another thread. I would further add that throughout time there have been people who have deliberately not had children believing that the world is no place for innocents.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

... we are getting off topic again, but as that has not really stopped me in the past I see no reason to depart from my path.....

It's only a little off topic, because we were standing in the queue at the pop-up vaccination clinic this morning (to get her Pfizer shot) when we were talking about it!!

Originally Posted by Warb

... according to my 16 year old daughter, is the fact that young people are constantly being told that previous generations have wrecked the planet, that climate change is largely irreversible, and that the future of the human race is rather grim. If that is true (and apparently that is the view the school system and social media is pushing at her generation) she sees no reason to have kids, and sees that as the prevailing opinion of her peers. It is her belief therefore that in addition to the financial and lifestyle constraints kids create, there is a feeling of "what's the point?" when it comes to the future of the species.....

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

That is interesting. we are getting off topic again, but as that has not really stopped me in the past I see no reason to depart from my path. I have a young friend who is fifteen, very bright (annoyingly so at times) and she expresses the view, that despite her elevated intelligence, has zero chance of getting a job when she reaches adulthood. I have frequently pondered, "where the f*&# is this coming from." Your comments now lead me to think that it may be promoted at school and or the media, but then I feel that all this is contrary to the essence of schooling so is that really the case?

This is 100% true that the majority feel this way - for when looked at objectively it is true. The entire system (assets, taxation, education, environment) is viciously and cynically rigged against them.

In China it is being called "Laying Flat" (tangping (躺平)) and its become a HHHUUUGGGEEE issue. Hugely huge.

The youth have passed despair and are now resigned to the fate handed to them. They are literally waiting for "the path to clear" before they act as a group. They are doing this as "our generation" utterly refuse to move. So they wait for us to die.

They weren't cheering with COVID19 being called the "Boomer remover" for no reason. Even this has now been taken away from them!


edit: I found this article which described Tangping very well. I feel its very important and we should all understand it. There is a real current of despair amongst young people and simply dismissing it is to our peril.

Originally Posted by Warb

Added to this, according to my 16 year old daughter, is the fact that young people are constantly being told
that previous generations have wrecked the planet,
that climate change is largely irreversible, and
that the future of the human race is rather grim.
If that is true (and apparently that is the view the school system and social media is pushing at her generation) she sees no reason to have kids, and sees that as the prevailing opinion of her peers. It is her belief therefore that in addition to the financial and lifestyle constraints kids create, there is a feeling of "what's the point?" when it comes to the future of the species.....

I'm a 66 year old boomer and have to mostly agree with your 16 year old.

and while the Boomers might get the "blame" -- I'll posit that the immediate post-Boomer generation (Gen X) -- who make up the bulk of our current crop of politicians -- are equally if not more liable. After all they have seen what the boomers did to the planet and jumped right in and made the situation even worse.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

This is 100% true that the majority feel this way - for when looked at objectively it is true. The entire system (assets, taxation, education, environment) is viciously and cynically rigged against them.

In China it is being called "Laying Flat" (tangping (躺平)) and its become a HHHUUUGGGEEE issue. Hugely huge.

edit: I found this article which described Tangping very well. I feel its very important and we should all understand it. There is a real current of despair amongst young people and simply dismissing it is to our peril.

Leaving the wrecked planet issue aside for a moment;

It's a very interesting article, but I'm not sure it's the same thing my daughter is expressing, and it also has some unanswered questions. For example, at no point has my daughter expressed any interest in ceasing to be a consumer - in fact the mere thought of not having a phone, laptop, clothes etc. would, I'm fairly certain, cause major hysteria. Equally, whilst that article discusses consumer culture, it doesn't (that I can see) suggest that the people laying flat have ceased to want, or use, modern technology or any other consumable.

I'm also not 100% sure that life is too much different than when I was starting work. Even back then, one had to start at the bottom and work up, though interestingly I remember the father of a friend of mine (40 years ago) discussing changing opinions. His exact comment was:

"When I was younger and I saw a nice car, I thought I'll work hard and one day I'll own a car like that. These days young people see a nice car and run a key down the side of it".

Like I said, that was 40 years ago and sounds much like the situation today!

Through my career in I.T., and since retiring, I've also noticed some changes. I was in I.T. very early, it was a very new field - nobody had computers at home, for example. In those days we worked hard to get the job done, whatever hours and weekends were required. BUT, when the work was done, we also played hard. And stupid! People rode unicycles round the office, we did all kinds of stupid stuff and spent money on stupid things. But, and this is the big thing, we did that AFTER the work was done and the customers were happy. In the last couple of years I've been to a few I.T. companies to visit for various reasons, and I've noticed a change. The offices are all super-glamorous, even relatively small companies. They are all super-well equipped with the latest everything, espresso machines, toys (radio control helicopters etc.) and everyone is having a ball. Yet the customers (in a couple of cases I know because I was one!) are not happy. The work has not been done, the software doesn't work properly etc. etc.. What this translates to is that they are taking the rewards without doing the work.....

That is the underlying sentiment that I sense from the younger generation. They see "us", the older generation, owning houses, cars, lathes, whatever. They are constantly bombarded with images of glamourous lifestyles, things that they want, and they know with absolute certainty that they can't afford those things. But what they don't see is that when we were their age, we couldn't afford them either! I tell my daughter that when I was 21 I had two jobs, lived in a rented house I shared with 4 other people, had 2 sets of clothes ("work" and "everything else") and we went to the pub once a week and nursed a single pint of beer all night. Without trying to sound like the Four Yorkshiremen sketch, "that's the trouble with the youth of today, when you tell 'em that they don't believe you". And it's understandable because all they see, all they are told, everything around them says "you should be doing this, buying that" and they can't. But nobody ever could when they were young, it's a fiction trying to get them to spend money they haven't got. Sadly it's also making them very miserable and disillusioned!!

Originally Posted by Warb

That is the underlying sentiment that I sense from the younger generation. They see "us", the older generation, owning houses, cars, lathes, whatever. They are constantly bombarded with images of glamourous lifestyles, things that they want, and they know with absolute certainty that they can't afford those things. But what they don't see is that when we were their age, we couldn't afford them either! I tell my daughter that when I was 21 I had two jobs, lived in a rented house I shared with 4 other people, had 2 sets of clothes ("work" and "everything else") and we went to the pub once a week and nursed a single pint of beer all night. Without trying to sound like the Four Yorkshiremen sketch, "that's the trouble with the youth of today, when you tell 'em that they don't believe you". And it's understandable because all they see, all they are told, everything around them says "you should be doing this, buying that" and they can't. But nobody ever could when they were young, it's a fiction trying to get them to spend money they haven't got. Sadly it's also making them very miserable and disillusioned!!

Warb

I was going to say that! Well, not exactly the same, but the same tone. There is increasingly an expectation among younger age groups of entitlement. As you have said, they see what we have and expect the same...right this minute. Having said that, neither of our children have succumbed to this way of thinking. However, I have certainly seen it with others. They require a brand new car and a large house whether they actually need it or not. Perhaps it is this expectation coupled with the realisation that it is not possible in a twelve month period after starting work that leads to their despondency. They just want too much too quickly and see it can't be done.

There is another aspect that forty or fifty years ago there were more jobs available. A budding apprentice could reasonably expect a choice of several job offers. Today we have the situation where students are required to remain at school for longer and even university graduates are not guaranteed work on completing their degree. In fact a high percentage of graduates never use the degree they studied (I don't recall the figures, but it is high).

Different times, but have times always been different for all generations? Perhaps just a different type of different?

Regards
Paul

Read some of this thread, especially regards the younger generation and their existential malaise.

Can recommend a marvellous book that looks into the strangeness of the young today

The Coddling of the American Mind

(How good intentions and bad ideas are setting up a generation for failure.)

Authors - Greg Lukianoff & Jonathon Haidt

I must say it is absolutely brilliant.

And for further reading in the general 21st century craziness

The Madness of Crowds. By Douglas Murray

Something still not being given anywhere near enough attention to in this whole schemozzle is similar to what I have been rabbiting on in the dust forum about for years and that is the issue of "forced fresh air ventilation".

Until this is addressed by State Health Authorities in a BIG way they simply cannot say they have pulled out every big trick in the book on mitigating COVID19.

Yesterday I listened to an ABC program that featured a country doctor who said that he and 500 other doctors/aerosol scientists/air quality engineers had written to all state and fed governments health depts about addressing this and they got a form reply from just one Dept flunkies, "Thank you you information has been noted" .

The segment went onto explain the potential role of CO2 monitors in assessing air quality (and hence residual virus) and (just like dust) how out of date CO2 levels in air are. Apparent Denmark and several other European countries are reassessing standards to take virus control into account in air turnover in buildings based on air CO2 levels. All public buildings but especially hospitals will need to meet certain air CO2 levels.

The fact that some AUS quarantine is moving out of hotels and into individual buildings is a sort of sideways reference to this.
Finally after many months Masks mandating is also related to this.

What's missing as general advice to folks in isolation living with possible COVOD carriers in the same dwelling is to increase the air flow in/out of dwellings "put on a jumper and open all the effin windows?"
Maybe get a fan or two and even portable HEPA air filter. If that happened here I would move my Workshop HEPA room air filter into the house.

In commercial and public buildings and spaces like public transport refitting all the air flow requirements is going to be very expensive. Not just the cost of the air delivery system but the hit on AC costs and people will almost certainly complain but better a bit colder or warmer that catching this wretched thing.

Of course its not an instant cure all but all it has to do is aid in dropping the reinfection rate by a few 10% of percent to below 1. It will also help with other viruses like the common cold.

Lots of people are onto this and the sales of CO2 monitors and air filters on ebay are booming.

I looked into CO2 monitors about 5 year ago when they were mostly expensive (hundreds of $$) but over the last year or so, I've notice there a HEAPs of budget end ($20) monitors with a mobile phone connectivity and readout. Just how accurate they are is unknown - I have been tempted to buy one and try it out but without considerable expense, calibration of low level CO2 is tricky so I'm passing for the immediate moment. I might try to make one - more for fun than accuracy

Agree with the comment above. Last year, my spouse was angry with me because I wouldn't go to restaurants (Even low density seating) if they didn't seem to turn air over well. I also didn't go bonkers on hand washing (not beyond any normal amount) because the whole hand wash thing seemed like nonsense. Not for other things, but for covid (each definitive article that I could find would talk about covid found on surfaces and state that it couldn't be cultured).

Then, the aerosol thing started up with graphics of heavy breathing joggers leaving a pepe le pew stream of aerosol killing people in mass numbers behind them. Except that the actual medical sites here suspected droplets being responsible.

So, I didn't wash my hands, I didn't take any precautions outside (reveling in not wearing masks when I wasn't taking right in someone's face) and none of us got covid.

But it has irritated me the entire time that what seems to get people *really* sick is droplets and duration. I have no idea why turning air over isn't something discussed more. If the air is turned over in a location that literally just infected a bunch of people, but the offender is gone - presume the air turned over every half hour or hour - the location is "clean" within that time duration, and maybe less as the density of the virus drops.

If the air is still (like nursing homes, etc), you get enormous severe case rates and death (pre-vaccine).

It's senseless.

(I didn't just decide the hand washing was nonsense because it made me feel good, I watched all of the retail workers and mailmen, and none of them were getting sick in any number above "background". The mailman stopped wearing gloves and pulled his mask down here within two weeks. If he's touching a zillion mail pieces, why am I washing four?). The NY Times quietly mentioned in *may of 2020* that the CDC advised that hand washing may have no practical effect because transmission from surface contact or touch was not documentable, and they also suspected outdoor transmission was less than 3% of total cases. )

But everyone is washing their hands and feeling fine if they're sitting 6 feet from someone in a restaurant. no thanks.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

There is another aspect that forty or fifty years ago there were more jobs available. A budding apprentice could reasonably expect a choice of several job offers. Today we have the situation where students are required to remain at school for longer and even university graduates are not guaranteed work on completing their degree. In fact a high percentage of graduates never use the degree they studied (I don't recall the figures, but it is high).

There are many reasons for the apparent lack of jobs, for example technology has replaced people, business wants to make more money - how many checkout staff have been replaced by self-service checkouts or telephone services that have far fewer staff and long wait times - and small businesses who employed a bunch of people have been replaced with far bigger companies with proportionally fewer staff. The economies of scale, which are required to service our ever growing population, also mean that fewer people are required to provide a far larger output. Additionally the western world has lost much of its "manual labour" employment, for example not only does it take far fewer people to build a car when machines do so much, but the unfortunate fallout of the wage wars and constant strikes of the 70's (I'm talking about the UK where I grew up) was that most manufacturing, certainly "heavy industry" is now fuelling the growth of the Asian countries so there are fewer factories needing staff in western countries.

The education aspect is also interesting. When I was young, few people (relatively) went to university. Those who did were largely people who had chosen a profession and were studying a specific subject to allow them to follow that chosen career. There were, of course, a fair number of people doing it for the experience, or to delay getting a job, or because parents expected it, but by and large it was still "career related". Since then there has been a shift in "belief", and now it as seen as a "right" to go to university, and something that (largely speaking) everyone should do. As a result, and I see this locally, kids are picking courses that they can get in to, from both HSC result and financial viewpoints, but which they have almost no interest in and certainly no intention of adopting as a career. The courses themselves have also changed, seemingly becoming less "subject" focussed. I suspect that this may be an attempt to make the course fit with the modern workplace, the courses being designed to fit with "modern jobs", but perhaps it has also made the courses narrower when it comes to applicability to a career? The old approach of a degree in chemistry (followed, if required, by a more specialised PhD) has been replaced with a degree in "environmental oceanic chemistry" (made up name!) that is next to useless for any other career path, even one based in some other branch of chemistry. The trouble with a vocational degree, when selected at a young age based on "what course can I get in to?", is that a very small change of career direction renders that qualification useless. Note here that many aspects of a qualification, attention to detail, ability to learn and think etc., are obviously always worthwhile, but they don't change the fact that under analysis that degree was never used in the workplace.

One final point, as an employer, is that finding suitable candidates is very hard. I see many complaints in media reports about people being forced in to part-time work, but it's actually very hard (at least here in rural NSW) to find someone who wants to work full time. We currently have 6 staff (all permanent not contract), none of whom work full time and none of whom will work any additional hours on a regular basis. There are various reasons for this, not least the fact that if they work too many hours they lose Centrelink benefits, but it is also a lifestyle choice. That choice is even more extreme in younger people. As discussed previously, perhaps they see us oldies not working but still having houses and cars, and they believe their lives should be the same.......?