Thread: Very dissapointed with purchase

Thanks, Munruben, you saved me typing those 6 lines.

The commercial implications of a situation like this are quite clear, and Neil said it already as far as the forum is concerned:

1) everybody makes mistakes and one gets more custom loyalty from an error fixed than from an error-free transaction;

2) the forum (read Neil) does the ethically right thing and informs suppliers when they are being blasted, if then they do not reply because they are too stupid to understand 1) it is their @#$%^ problem;

3) forum exposure has the potential to improve market transparency (sadly very poor in Oz, I know) and this desirable outcome ( the greater good) complicates the issue.

There are still two unanswered questions, though:

1) given that it is unreasonable to expect all suppliers to read al the forums, is it fair to blast them and expect the forums to take the responsibility to inform them to give them the opportunity to reply;

2) even if the supplier is informed by the complainant before (better form) or by the forum (default position), is it fair to expect the supplier to accept this as the proper place to answer the complaint? If you answer in the positive, please google "Goebbels principles of propaganda".

I hope everybody accepts that taking the opportunity just to say "I had a bad experience with XXXX" is not fair (for the justification of the "greater good" please google "exploitation of Goethe's philosophy by the Nazi")

As for BobL justification for shoplifting... good one, Bob, had nor heard that one before.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Do you consider this worthy of negative feedback? This is only the second or third time in a decade of using eBay that I have given someone negative feedback.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Tough one, but there is the possibility that you are more discerning and more knowledgeable than the seller. Sellers who refund money no questions asked, have in the past earned positive ratings from me. The decision to live with the item with faults is then mine alone and I know that others will be protected by the sellers refund policy.

But on the other hand, I am sure there are a couple of sellers who pretend to be a bit naive about things until they get sprung.

Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

1) given that it is unreasonable to expect all suppliers to read al the forums, is it fair to blast them and expect the forums to take the responsibility to inform them to give them the opportunity to reply;

No, however by the same token its it fair that a vendor should benefit from any positive feedback someone may leave on a forum. I think the admins do a fair job, but I have no problem with it being their job if the customer hasn’t done the right thing first.
Is it fair to expect the forum admins to notify a vendor if they choose not to participate due to lack of interest/ability/foresight?

Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

2) even if the supplier is informed by the complainant before (better form) or by the forum (default position), is it fair to expect the supplier to accept this as the proper place to answer the complaint? If you answer in the positive, please google "Goebbels principles of propaganda".

Propaganda? Seriously? That is a bit of a stretch I think. These are straightforward issues of customer satisfaction (with all the statutory rights that includes). The supplier is well within his right to either ignore the issue or make comment on a forum, or directly with the customer (perhaps indicating on the forum that he has done just that). Is it fair? Perhaps not. Could I care less? Definitely not. Feedback is feedback and you can't expect to benefit from the positive without having to deal with the negative.

Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

I hope everybody accepts that taking the opportunity just to say "I had a bad experience with XXXX" is not fair

Your definition of fairness and inferred attempt to equate anyone's differing view as influenced by Nazi thinking is bordering on offensive (I hope I've just missed a joke there). These forums are supplementing and replacing many other methods of (previously verbal) discourse on any particular topic. The definition of fairness with respect to customer feedback and sharing of opinions/experiences is open to some interpretation. Perhaps you are thinking of examples where unhappy customers have been more malicious, but then I would expect the admins to do their job.

In this case I think WW has done nothing but provide some useful information on the seemingly poor attitude of a vendor after making many attempts to have the issue resolved correctly.

Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

1) given that it is unreasonable to expect all suppliers to read al the forums, is it fair to blast them and expect the forums to take the responsibility to inform them to give them the opportunity to reply;

I'm not sure I agree with this. I think it is reasonable to expect a supplier to read the forums and keep up to date with what is being said about them on the internet. There are many ways to do this that are both efficient and effective.

The world is simply becoming more and more "social" online and every business wanting to do business needs to become aware of this and learn to adapt.

2) even if the supplier is informed by the complainant before (better form) or by the forum (default position), is it fair to expect the supplier to accept this as the proper place to answer the complaint? If you answer in the positive, please google "Goebbels principles of propaganda".

Sometimes it is just not worth a business responding and legitimising the complaint or grevience. Sometimes they need to respond in order to partake in the conversation and help resolve issues. It all depends on so many things and is another piece of this puzzle that businesses need to learn.

Cheers,
Af.

Originally Posted by Afro Boy

I'm not sure I agree with this. I think it is reasonable to expect a supplier to read the forums and keep up to date with what is being said about them on the internet. There are many ways to do this that are both efficient and effective.

Afro, this is the biggest wood forum in Aust, but it would represent probably .01% of the greater woodworking community from home based hobbyists to professionals. Almost 100% of the people I deal with (that i have asked) have never heard of this forum. Its just not important to them in running business.

Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

I hope everybody accepts that taking the opportunity just to say "I had a bad experience with XXXX" is not fair (for the justification of the "greater good" please google "exploitation of Goethe's philosophy by the Nazi")

How can you even joke about something like this? ( I certainly hope you were joking). How many Australian lives were lost fighting Nazis and others for our right to free speech without fear of oppression? Your attempted slur on those who care about their fellow man's rights is incomprehensible to say the least.

Besides, you have got it completely ass about. The suppression of facts and failing to acknowledge relevant considerations is not only blindingly ignorant but are also traits of Nazi and Communist propaganda. It is this material suppression or misrepresentation that is done for the greater good and forms the backbone of propaganda.

Originally Posted by Afro Boy

Sometimes it is just not worth a business responding and legitimising the complaint or grevience.

I'd be surprised if any business would want to respond to any open forum for the reasons that you cite. But they can get very favourable exposure simply by dealing with the customer direct and doing the right thing .

For example, imagine the difference in this discussion if the call WW received from the vendor was simply to offer to exchange the unit or provide a refund so he was not out of pocket for the faulty goods? Tales such as this earn the business far more valuable goodwill than the few measly bucks the faulty item would cost to replace.

Originally Posted by Lignum

Afro, this is the biggest wood forum in Aust, but it would represent probably .01% of the greater woodworking community from home based hobbyists to professionals. Almost 100% of the people I deal with (that i have asked) have never heard of this forum. Its just not important to them in running business.

I agree that the woodworking community is much larger than this forum. It is a shame that many companies you've spoken to don't find it important to engage in the online communities. I guess they make most of their money from offline adventures.

I don't believe this will be the case for much longer though. For most companies wanting to succeed in the future, they need to come to terms with the online communities around that discuss them, their brand and their experiences. It may not be important for woodworking suppliers at the moment, but I would be serious money on the fact that it will be incredibly important within a few years time.

Originally Posted by TP1

I'd be surprised if any business would want to respond to any open forum for the reasons that you cite. But they can get very favourable exposure simply by dealing with the customer direct and doing the right thing .

Personally I tend to agree. You need to go to where your clients are and deal with it there. There are times however when someone might complain, it doesn't get any traction and it's therefore not worth responding. I was trying to point out that there is a whole range of appropriate response that a company can make.

Tales such as this earn the business far more valuable goodwill than the few measly bucks the faulty item would cost to replace.

Absolutely agree.

Cheers,
Af.

Originally Posted by TP1

For example, imagine the difference in this discussion if the call WW received from the vendor was simply to offer to exchange the unit or provide a refund so he was not out of pocket for the faulty goods? Tales such as this earn the business far more valuable goodwill than the few measly bucks the faulty item would cost to replace.

Or imagine the difference if we had the vendors side of the story. Im not suggesting WW `s side is misleading, but at the moment its so one sided, how can anyone make a fair and reasonable call on it.

What he said.

Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

1) given that it is unreasonable to expect all suppliers to read al the forums, is it fair to blast them and expect the forums to take the responsibility to inform them to give them the opportunity to reply;

This particular supplier, based in Perth with a small local market, relies on mail order sales with a strong internet aspect. Thus it is quite reasonable to expect that they read this forum. The previous owners of that business did it and came on the forum regularly, so why not the current owners. In any case they referred about this forum in the discussion with WW so they are aware of it.

Further as a my family suffered under the jackboot of Nazi occupation during the war and many a times the Gestapo raided our house looking for my uncles who narrowly escaped being dragged of to the Nazi concentration camps, I find any reference to Goebbels and Nazis in the context of this discussion offensive and insulting..

If you had any idea of how the Nazis behaved during the war you wouldn't make these comments.


Peter.

I think that this thread has run its course.

I got this in a PM from Frank and Earnest:

My apologies for introducing another contentious issue and thanks for closing the thread when it became an attack on me more than a way to address the issues.

This, however, deprived me of the opportunity to point out that I regret that my references elicited such responses but, as the son of a man who survived a German camp, I have as much right as they have to feel insulted by their lack of understanding of my tongue in cheek appeals to brodadening their perspectives.

Added by : Remember that in the written word it is very hard to read the nuances and body language of the person making the statement.

That is why we have emoticons. Use them, so that it at least gives some idea of the meaning.

Posted by : Woodwood had written a letter to the manufacturer and received this:




Thank you for contacting Milescraft. We are sorry you are having problems with your baseplate. The 7" is our standard baseplate and is a component part of many of our products, therefore we very much need to know of any defects in the field as it would affect huge part of our product line. And the truth is we are unaware of any issues "in the field" with the base plate. That is not to say that there couldn't be an occasional product that slips past the inspection. There could be a small burr either on the top or the bottom, or something that is preventing the baseplate from sitting solid.

(name deleted) we do stand behind our products and would like to send you a new baseplate from our facility in Illinois. We will personally inspect the baseplate to make sure it is flat. We will ask that you also inspect your router base to make sure it is flat.

We do thank you for purchasing our products and want to make sure you are satisfied so please provide us with your address.

Rita Miller
Milescraft
847-683-9200 x 22
[email protected]


Rita,

Thank you for your prompt and considered response. I have inspected my offset base carefully and I can not see and burrs. The surface is rippled as if there were some problem with the setting or curing of the plastic.

Also, I read the instructions on fitting the base before I purchased one and the instructions said to use the existing screws to attach the base to the router. I have a Makita 3612 ( a very popular and common router), but the base was too thick and my long suffering wife spent many hours driving round various fastener stores looking for longer screws.

Thank you for your help with this matter, it's much appreciated.

Regards, *

This thread will be opened for a short while and then closed permanently: