Thread: Getting a better Energy deal - WHAT A JOKE!

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

There's hardly a few hours go by without an energy news story:
The Government wants to pay you to switch off this summer - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

I don't think the technical systems exist in NSW to do that. In VIC the smart meter program is fully installed or near enough but I wonder how they individually monitor it? Let's see, its a bit hot and I want to save a few dollars for christmas pressies, turn off the AC, jump in the car and go to the local shopping centre and chill out there. Maybe they need to give it a bit more thought or maybe Westfield are in on this.

Batteries

You can use your car to go and collect some groceries from the shops for your up coming holiday, you can then use it to drive the family to Sydney (or some other exotic place ) for that holiday, if you cant afford the hotels when you get there you can sleep in your car. Arguably, these aren't the same "uses" of a car.

People tend to think in terms of a battery storing power so they can use it, either at a low level personally in their own home or at a more esoteric level "to power the state" (or town or local area or whatever). It is true about storing power for use at a household level is reaching the stage where it is possible (but not economical, yet, at least in cities) to meet the complete household demand while the renewables are dormant. But away from the house level, that isn't what batteries (and the associated equipment that goes with them) are really about. From memory there are about 7 things batteries can do or help with (I don't remember them all!) and any one battery can do one or more things (just like your car)

Capacity Firming - Can help renewables be surer of their output over periods when they are bidding into the market, so is less riskier (ie cheaper) for them to bid.

Load Levelling/Peak Shaving - are similar but not the same. Similar to the example from earlier with the pumped hydro, where you take excess power in one part of the day and use it in another (load levelling). Similar concept (peak shaving) where you use the stored battery energy to export during times of rarer peaks (eg summer peak) means you don't have to build a generator just for that peak (saves infrastructure costs).

Voltage Support - Batteries can be used to import/export VArs

Power Quality - batteries can smooth out trashy waveforms which could damage equipment. Not such a problem in Australia as we already have a fairly high quality network (except for the fringes) but pretty useful in less developed places.

Bear the above in mind when you hear pollies or whoever say that such and such a battery is too small to supply whatever. As an example, the new Tesla battery being installed in SA (I have nothing to do with it, by the way) of 100MW for 1 hour or there abouts, would have been amply big enough to reduce the famous SA state wide black out (if it had been connected to the southern part of the system). There would have still been loss of everything north and west of where the towers went over because that left a big mismatch between generation and load, but the support the battery is capable of giving, even for just a few minutes would easily have supported the remaining southern generation (particularly the wind) and allowed the remainder of the system to stabilise and stay on.

Electrical power systems are really complex and all the parts interact in complex ways. Some people (like pollies) want simple answers where there are none. Where those people have refused to address the old difficult questions, time has lead to more complications and the questions have got even harder to answer. But they must be answered _at some time_. Kicking the can down the road only works for a while.
(Same for climate)

Regards
SWK

Originally Posted by swk

As an example, the new Tesla battery being installed in SA (I have nothing to do with it, by the way) of 100MW for 1 hour or there abouts, would have been amply big enough to reduce the famous SA state wide black out (if it had been connected to the southern part of the system). There would have still been loss of everything north and west of where the towers went over because that left a big mismatch between generation and load, but the support the battery is capable of giving, even for just a few minutes would easily have supported the remaining southern generation (particularly the wind) and allowed the remainder of the system to stabilise and stay on.

Electrical power systems are really complex and all the parts interact in complex ways. Some people (like pollies) want simple answers where there are none. Where those people have refused to address the old difficult questions, time has lead to more complications and the questions have got even harder to answer. But they must be answered _at some time_. Kicking the can down the road only works for a while.
(Same for climate)

Regards
SWK

SWK

Nice explanation. I liken it to what a masseur once told me. He could fix a bruised or otherwise damaged muscle, but he couldn't repair a broken tendon.

As to the pollies and their self-centred agendas.......I don't think I should say

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Until shown otherwise I'm still working on the assumption that the daily supply charge by the retailers is (at least largely) currently a rort. That would be a good opportunity for them to earn it.

It may be a rort (I dont know). But don't get the distributors mixed up with the retailers.

There are simplistically 4 groups involved in this.
The Generators - they make the electricity (produce the goods)
Transmission - they move the electricity between generators and towns (like semis move bulk freight) They own the big lines you see in the country.
Distribution - they spread the electricity in the town to the consumers (like a delivery van business) They own the lines you see in the city
Retailers - buy the electricity (from the generators) and send out the bills. They own the meters

Generators supply electricity into the pool and get a pool price back. This varies with demand and who can generate.
Retailers buy out of the pool at whatever the pool price is.

The pool price varies from a typical 6-10c/kWh to a capped maximum of 14$/kWh. Dollars, not cents. (VoLL, might be a bit higher than that now, I've lost touch)
If you are an idiot, you buy and sell direct into the pool (like I believe BHP did) and when you get burned (as you must) you then understand that there are financial tools such as hedging where a generator will go to a retailer and say, hey we will come to an arrangement with you that if the pool price is low the retailers will give some money back to the generator and if it is high the generator will give their profits to the retailer. Over time it averages out a reasonable cost (with less risk) for both.

In the mean time the distributors and the transmission companies get a fixed "cut" of the electricity they carry (DUOS and TUOS respectively) which is set by the government as a "fair" return and argued about every 5 years or so.

Since it is the retailers which collect the money from the customers (unless you are a very big customer and should have worked out a proper deal direct) it is the retailers who work out the split of charges. Does it make sense to charge a "rental" on their equipment in your house or could they absorb that in the rate they charge you? (of course they could) but I don't know enough to go there.

Regards
SWK

Originally Posted by swk

It may be a rort (I dont know). But don't get the distributors mixed up with the retailers.

Does it make sense to charge a "rental" on their equipment in your house or could they absorb that in the rate they charge you? (of course they could) but I don't know enough to go there.

No, I definitely don't get them mixed up, which is why I question just exactly what the retailers do. So far it sounds like not much at all.

My retailer was AGL, and is now Origin
Distributor (wholesaler) is Endeavour Energy

Endeavour does all the maintenance, AGL does none (same for whoever next door is using as their retailer). I'd be pretty sure that it's Endeavour that does the meter reads too, and then just hands them out to the various retailers for their billing purposes.

So as far as I am concerned the only conscionable way the retailers can charge for daily supply is if Endeavour (or whoever the distributor happens to be) charges the retailers for a daily supply to each property. I'll not be at all surprised to learn that they don't, and IF they do, it would be a much smaller amount than the consumer is charged.

fletty?

Originally Posted by swk

There are simplistically 4 groups involved in this.
The Generators - they make the electricity (produce the goods)
Transmission - they move the electricity between generators and towns (like semis move bulk freight) They own the big lines you see in the country.
Distribution - they spread the electricity in the town to the consumers (like a delivery van business) They own the lines you see in the city
Retailers - buy the electricity (from the generators) and send out the bills. They own the meters

Four cuts of the pie where there used to be one.

Rent seekers and ticket clippers at every step.

[QUOTE=swk;2050327]It may be a rort (I dont know). But don't get the distributors mixed up with the retailers.

There are simplistically 4 groups involved in this.
The Generators - they make the electricity (produce the goods)
Transmission - they move the electricity between generators and towns (like semis move bulk freight) They own the big lines you see in the country.
Distribution - they spread the electricity in the town to the consumers (like a delivery van business) They own the lines you see in the city
Retailers - buy the electricity (from the generators) and send out the bills. They own the meters

/QUOTE]

In WA the transmission and distribution are owned by the same mob (Western Power) they also own the meters

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Four cuts of the pie where there used to be one.

Rent seekers and ticket clippers at every step.

No disagreement from me there.
(remember, privatisation is more efficient)


Regards
SWK

Originally Posted by swk

Power Quality - batteries can smooth out trashy waveforms which could damage equipment. Not such a problem in Australia as we already have a fairly high quality network (except for the fringes) but pretty useful in less developed places.

A lot of the issue in SA was because of the frequency fluctuation due to asynchronous generation from solar & wind, which was then compounded by the storm and transmission tower collapse - but the Vic interconnect was already disconnected due to the frequency limits being tripped before the towers collapsed.

A power station operator explained to me a little while back that the frequency meter in the control room used to hardly move (which has limits of 49 - 51 Hz. Beyond that protection kicks in) The more base load power was removed from the grid and asynchronous generation was added, the worse it has got. It think this summer, in Victoria at least, will be very telling of just how unstable things have already got. Batteries IMO, are simply a short term solution at best.

Originally Posted by swk

Retailers - buy the electricity (from the generators) and send out the bills. They own the meters

Surely the Distributors own the meters? Otherwise the meter ownership will have to be transferred every time I change retailer (which might be quite a bit from now on).

Also, when my Gas meter wasn't on the distribuor's data base (Jemena) it was up to them to sort it out, not AGL. As I understand things, it the "Billing rights" that become the property of the retailer, not the meter. Furthermore, it would then be each retailer's job to read their own meters, so there might be ten readers reading 10% each of the meters in each street - drastically inefficient.

Originally Posted by maxxsinner

Batteries IMO, are simply a short term solution at best.

You mean like the State owned batteries in SA?

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Here you go Chris:
Perth start-up using blockchain technology for peer-to-peer trading - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Sounds good. Doesn't work.

Blockchain simply doesnt scale. The end. ICOs are a fraud and Bitcoin triply so.

A Lot of people are going to lose their shirts, homes and family over ICO's and Bitcoin/Ethereum. Its tulips multiplied by speculation multiplied by hucksters.

Its exactly the same noise I heard from the inside before the dotcom crash wiped these frauds off the map.

About the only thing blockchain is actually useful for is perhaps taxation, contract enforcement or recording transactions for a retailer.

The hucksters flogging this vapourware are simply trying to stuff a turkey into the blockchain trendiness. Every investor will go down in flames. The blockchain is utterly unnecessary for this business model.

So i'm not overly technical when it comes to electricity generation or distribution, but as a layperson regarding the topic, it seems to me that it would be beneficial to both the government, the consumer and to business if there were greater emphasis on the implementation of battery storage (e.g. the Tesla System) in all new residential builds (and potentially some form of well governed subsidy for existing residences, not that i've ever seen any evidence of a well governed subsidy so i'm not holding my breath on that one).

Fact is, whether you're arguing for the environment, or for ensuring the country doesn't experience rolling blackouts every time the mercury hits 30 degrees or more, a tesla battery in say 30% of Aussie homes will significantly reduce the amount of juice needed from the grid during these peak periods... it would also mean we burn less coal which I think everyone, other than the suppository of all knowledge, agree is a good thing.

Now, the downside (if you can call it that) is that your AGLs and Origins and Adani's all lose a massive chuck of coin.... now people see this as meaning job losses etc, but if everyone had an extra $1500 to spend a year or whatever the average household bill is, then it would boost the economy in other areas and create jobs too (particularly in the renewables sector).

I have a habit of over simplifying things though, so there may be more wholes in this post than in the SA summer power supply...

Well I can't for the life of me see why we need so many retailers. A small handful is all that is required for competition (although it makes collusion easier). Add to that the number of different ways they skin the cat (to get the same result), and it just becomes more difficult and confusing for the consumer, not easier or better.

It's the same for NBN retailers. There is a BEWILDERING amount to choose from (just been through it), which just makes all the more time consuming to select one. Most of them seem to offer more or less the same thing anyway, but it takes ages to establish that and make a choice. At least comparing NBN plans is much simpler and doesn't require fairly complex spreadsheets.

Of course we need some competition to keep the bastards honest(ish), but we need to be sensible about it too.