Getting a better Energy deal - WHAT A JOKE!

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Originally Posted by ian

Well it is Brett's thread, and so far he's not complaining about the digression. Yep, all good, as long as I can still whinge when my fourth AGL for the week comes in....

To which digression I'll add -- possibly the least expensive "fix" to SA's and the Eastern States' power woes might be to mandate that for every 10 MWh of solar and wind electricity bid into the market the bidding organisation must be able to supply 5 MWh of "dark time" reserve: battery, pumped hydro, coal generation. This should change the generator pricing equation enough to provide some measure of market certainty to the existing base load stations.

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I don't know how that would work, but it sounds like a reasonable idea if it's practical.

That prompts me to wonder the following: how do the outages occur? Is it from lack of enough power being generated at the time of peak demand, or is it because the mathematicians have forecast the right demand, and the grid - i.e. after the generation - gets fried by so much power being put into or drawn from it? I would have thought there would be preventative measures against this scenario.

If it's the former, then Ian's (latest) idea would have great merit indeed.

And if it's the latter, and the mathematicians have stuffed it up on one occasion and asked for a huge load of power which is not taken up by the consumers, can we still have an outage even though the demand was not that high? This might perhaps be brought about by a sudden and unforeseen change in the weather (prolly fairly unlikely I guess).

So the ACT is at 35% renewable energy.
That just GREAT not.

Canberra's denizens can feel all warm and fuzzy for 2 hours either side of mid day, while sucking the juice out of NSW the rest of the time.

Yes I just read that before Bob.

There has to be something deeply wrong with that article about Mugga Lane (not the article itself, but the agreement).

"The Mugga Lane Solar Farm is being paid $178 per Megawatt hour of elec that it produces"

A Megawatt is 1000x a Kilowatt, is it not? (unless they do something radical with the terminology in elec, then that is correct)

That means they are paid $178/1000 = 17.8 cents per kWh as the generator. I don't know if there is a wholesaler involved, but my point is that the generator is being paid just 1.7 cents per kWh less than I am paying for peak juice as a consumer (I pay 19.5 + GST).

So either the elec is charge out at a phenomenally high price, or the retailer makes no margin at all.

Or I'm missing something completely....

I'm not defending Canberra, for it's like a microcosm of socialist utopia (i.e. everyone else pays for it) but on the case of solar, they are right onto it.

The city is close to two huge dams (one just finished) and no doubt pumped hydro is part of this.

The government's mission is "The ACT Government said the cost of reaching its renewable energy target of 90 per cent by 2020 was expected to peak at about $4 per household per week in 2020 before declining."

90% for $4 a week is not a high price.

There are many businesses here who will install ground-thermal exchange and quite a few buildings here have it too. Its regularly in the local rag. I've a friend in Red Hill (a bit posh) who has one in his house. It is 20° day and night, summer and winter. It runs from a single solar panel on the roof and four car batteries. This is impressive, as in winter it gets to -10°C (with cold days) and summers are often 35+ (often over 40) and hot nights.

Obviously there is a cost. But there is a vision for the future.

FF talking about black roofs on treeless deserts in new suburbs. These defy all logic. I also see whole new McMansion suburbs here bought with 100% LIAR loans, not one solar panel, not one tree, but they boast imported european granite bathrooms. Jesus H Christ, talk about priorities.

The violence of opposition to alternative energy supply is amazing. It is also irrational and devoid of reason. Boohoo, a few coal power stations are utterly doomed. So frackin what.

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

There has to be something deeply wrong with that article about Mugga Lane (not the article itself, but the agreement).

"The Mugga Lane Solar Farm is being paid $178 per Megawatt hour of elec that it produces"

A Megawatt is 1000x a Kilowatt, is it not? (unless they do something radical with the terminology in elec, then that is correct)

That means they are paid $178/1000 = 17.8 cents per kWh as the generator. I don't know if there is a wholesaler involved, but my point is that the generator is being paid just 1.7 cents per kWh less than I am paying for peak juice as a consumer (I pay 19.5 + GST).

So either the elec is charge out at a phenomenally high price, or the retailer makes no margin at all.

Or I'm missing something completely....

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you pay a price per kWh averaged over the period of your contract. The Mugga Lane generator is paid 17.8 cents/kWh averaged over perhaps [a long term average of] 4 hours each day. The rest of the time, the ACT is supplied with coal generated power from NSW at maybe 8 cents/kWh.

The real problem I see with what you are reporting is not the minimal margin between your domestic rate and what Mugga Lane are "promised", but that the guarantee is 17.8 cents/kWh, regardless of what the market may be offering -- which on a sunny day might be as little as 6 cents/kWh.
To me it begs the question, just what additional incentives did the ACT Government (a Labor/Green alliance) offer the investors, just so the government could boast 35% solar?

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

That means they are paid $178/1000 = 17.8 cents per kWh as the generator. I don't know if there is a wholesaler involved, but my point is that the generator is being paid just 1.7 cents per kWh less than I am paying for peak juice as a consumer (I pay 19.5 + GST).

So either the elec is charge out at a phenomenally high price, or the retailer makes no margin at all.

Or I'm missing something completely....

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We pay 21.7 cents per kWh and 96.14 cents per day supply charge.

There are base load options and whatnot, but thats a bog standard residential.

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Originally Posted by woodPixel

Attachment 421752

Burn more coal. Thats the answer. Lets not pursue alternatives, cos CO2 isn't a problem...

BOM drops a special climate statement explaining why it was so hot in September and
Spring heatwave hits east coast, with temperatures soaring in New South Wales, Queensland and Victoria

and a clanger from yesterday: Its all too late, the runaway heat buildup may be irreverasable and cascade: https://insideclimatenews.org/news/0...e-change-study

We will argue about "cost" of solar, but what is the real cost? I'd argue the cost is the very planet itself. The cost is our grandchildren going through 50 degree days in Sydney: 'Really awful': 50-degree days possible for Sydney, Melbourne, as warming worsens

Its time we started getting 100% serious about reforestation and planning enormous carbon sinks. We need to stop producing CO2 - TODAY.

Coal plants are not the answer. Reduced consumption and alternative generation is.

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It won't happen while our present political leaders are in power and have thinking like this....

Tony Abbott says climate change 'could be beneficial' because people die in the cold

Does he understand what he did by spouting this stuff, he made this country look like we are all congenital idiots. To make matters worse he is not the only flat earther in federal govt who has similar views. Sorry to move to political comment but I had to post this as an indicator of how politicians are approaching the issues threatening us.

Edit: the link is a repeat with different headlines but it goes with my comments.

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Originally Posted by woodPixel

One thing that did inflame to to apoplexy though is the speech given by our former PM yesterday: Tony Abbott says climate change action is like trying to 'appease the volcano gods'

Wow, does that guy grill my grits.

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I dunno Ev, he was preaching to the converted (incidentally, that foundation was started by Nigella Lawson's father), and he has already done his damage to the Liberal Party (in creating and prolonging disunity). I'm not sure there has been any change, or would be any change, in the support/lack of for Climate Change within the Libs. At the same time I think that the general population is slowly coming around to it more fully, so that would just mean that Abbott is grist to the mill for the Libs falling on their sword at the next election, after which we will hopefully get some decent action.

If nothing is almost immediately delivered then (by what would surely have to be a Labor Govt), we will be in very serious trouble.

To be clear, it's not so much that I want Shorten in or Fizza out - I just want some bloody action! I don't give a tinker's cusp who takes the action.

Actually the person I blame the most for the current mess is Kevin Rudd. He had an opportunity to go to a DD Election over the ETS, and he would have crapped it in. He just didn't have the bottle for it. Business may have been gnashing its teeth over it, but they would chow down on it now if it gave them some certainty.

Typing with one finger is hindering me from replying to edited quotes from other posts so I'll just add a few more points to fuel the fire and the reader will have to work out IF and WHERE they fit in but firstly I apologise if WP thought my 'hysteria' remarks were aimed at him and were condescending. My comment related to my experience "from this point" not from his point. Also I am trying to be as balanced as I can, not condescending to anyone. I haven't AND won't even table my preferred solution/s.
Now, back to the controversy

• Re time zones, even a 1 hour time shift would make a huge difference. Studies that I've been involved in here in Australia shows that on the first 40 degree day, there is a huge spike between 4 and 6 when people come home and turn their aircon on AND their work aircon is still on. On the second consecutive 40 degree day, that spike is a bit bigger but later because many people stay in the work aircon rather than travel in the heat BUT, on the third consecutive 40 degree day there is a much lower spike because the whole day has been at a much higher level because people leave their aircon on ALL DAY! This is known in the industry as 'cool pet syndrome' If this can be modified and or time phased between Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane by their peaks being separated by +/- (say)45 minutes then this can be covered by base load stations being able to predict and having time to react.
• Re solar generators without storage, this is huge issue as Ian notes, because let's say Canberra powers its load when the Sun shines but then demands that base load is immediately available when it clouds over, well the base load stations can't respond that quickly and our peaking plants will rake the money in?
• I also note that the ANU report referred to in WP's link states that pumped storage will solve all of our problems in installing point of time generators! Well, we couldn't even increase the height of Warragamba Dam for Sydneys DRINKING WATER! I'm not aware of anyone screaming out "quick, please come and dam my river/coastal inlet/tidal gorge?
• California edicted a few years back that air conditioners could only be powered by your own solar panels. The idea was that you are only hot when the Sun shines. We sent their power utilities our own data that showed it might work in Sydney if you are within 3 km of the coast BUT, for those of us who experience 38 degree nights in Western Sydney ...... it would lead to riots here, and was quietly dropped there as well!

I will now retire for a while and return to my unairconditioned shed!

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Originally Posted by Chris Parks

He made this country look like we are all congenital idiots.

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He's been doing that for years though. I really think that people in general are smart enough to work out who the congenital idiot is, in his case. Mind you, the ABC could help by not reporting it at all - starve the mongrel of oxygen, at home anyway.

Remember that this debate is a bit like voting in general Chris - it's only the swingers whose vote counts for anything at all. Those who are rusted on to either side only achieve background white noise - they don't affect the outcome at all (unless they can convince some of the swingers).

And at this point, even business accepts that coal is not the future.

Is green power from PV roof systems going to add a significant amount of ergs to the system? Canberra obviously think not as they are reducing the carbon credits over the next decade and a half which seems to be backward thinking to say the least. There should be an increase of incentives for even the poorest of households to be able to install a significant solar system, if they don't those least able to afford it are going to cop it in the neck properly. I can see some time next year a move to make Solar systems compulsory for new builds but that is not going to sort out all the existing houses.

The biggest issue with putting a solar system up now is the amount of rip off merchants telling lies and BS and the carbon credit rebate system is the big problem. As soon as an industry has government rebates and subsidies thrown at it prices go up and every shyster south of the equator gets involved, even bigger companies are part of this. You want a quote sir, give me your address and I will do that while we chat on the phone via Google Earth straight from the aerial overheads. There should be other methods of rebate but I can't think what it is.

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Originally Posted by fletty

Re time zones, even a 1 hour time shift would make a huge difference. If this can be modified and or time phased between Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane by their peaks being separated by +/- (say)45 minutes then this can be covered by base load stations being able to predict and having time to react.

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Yebbut, Brisbane is already phase shifted by one hour in summer (ok, they are the smallest of the 3, and by a fair margin, but they are also the hottest...).

So to shift the time of Syd or Melb will either result in 30 or 60 minutes extra Daylight saving (cos a 15 or 45 minute time shift is NEVER going to work) and I very much doubt that extra daylight saving will ever get up. Shifting one place's time back towards Brisbane time would be self-defeating.

That leaves the only other time shift option to be changing the working hours by an hour for one complete city. I can't see that working either.

Which leaves us with what option/s?

The issue that many governments won't tell you is that they are quite schizo on the matter, particularly in WA. As they are major stakeholders in the infrastructure and retail. So on one hand they want to sell you electricity, whilst on the other hand they want to be see as "customer centric" Obviously loads of funds have been used over the years to build power plants, electricity infrastructure etc and therefore they want to see a return on their investment. Having customers less reliant on the infrastructure isn't good for their business.

Plus the infrastructure is required not only services the residential sector but commercial businesses who cannot simply go off the grid/solar as easily (many don't own the building for eg to install solar). Which is the other sad truth, electricity retailers don't care about residential customers as residential customers are the crumbs compared to commercial businesses. Plus they already subsidise the cost of electricity for residential customers so providing further rebates to help consumers become less reliant isn't good business.

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Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Is green power from PV roof systems going to add a significant amount of ergs to the system? You just wanted to use that term :D

There should be an increase of incentives for even the poorest of households to be able to install a significant solar system, if they don't those least able to afford it are going to cop it in the neck properly. I can see some time next year a move to make Solar systems compulsory for new builds but that is not going to sort out all the existing houses.

The biggest issue with putting a solar system up now is the amount of rip off merchants telling lies and BS and the Energy retailers don't? At least when purchasing a system you can get a few quotes that will hopefully be apples and apples.

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Remember that the poorest households will almost certainly be tenants, so they won't have much chance of talking the landlord into it. Just recently I attempted to do exactly that with my excellent and reasonable landlord. My argument was very well reasoned and cogent, with the correct -ve gearing figures put in, and it showed a very low longer term investment (esp considering that this is her retirement home in 8-10 years from now). The answer was a flat "No" - even with a modest rent increase thrown in to help, so I reckon I know how virtually all landlords would react.

As I said in a previous post, not all houses have a roof shape/aspect etc that is suitable, so those people miss out too, through no fault of their own. That is another reason why it has to be a community based approach.