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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    Umm, MT2 it's a locking taper? Or are you talking about something else? Confused...

    Ray
    Locking tapers do not work too well with unbalanced loads... The tool eventually works loose and falls out.. Bigger machines with morse tapers like some radial drills and of course horizontal borers, have a second slot which is to retain tools via a retainer key..

    As an aside, I have seen older machine tools with morse taper spindles that do have driving slots for driving dogs...
    Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.

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  3. #32
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    Default Dumont broach set

    Not a bad price for a set of Dumont broaches, not super cheap but not bad if they're not blunt, seller also has a metric set.

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Minute-Ma...3D221583853168

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete F View Post
    ......Morse taper is self locking and the tab does precisely squat in driving anything. It's there just to remove it.........
    Not exactly. Whilst it is correct the tang does not transmit a driving force, it does nevertheless prevent the arbor from spinning. If the arbor is allowed to spin, even only once, it would score both the male and female taper ruining accuracy. Also, a once scored taper will forever slip, until the damage is removed. You can see this very well on smaller lathe's tailstocks, which have no flats in the barrel to prevent the arbor from slipping. Most of these lathes do eventually suffer from scored barrel tapers.

    Morse tapers are self locking. Especially so highly accurate, polished Morse tapers - they hold together by Van der Waals forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_der_Waals_force). However, the smallest dirt/dust/hair/oil/grease when putting the tapers together will greatly diminish this force. Hence the need for a high degree of cleanliness if considering using these for boring (without a drawbar).

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwijibo99 View Post
    Not a bad price for a set of Dumont broaches, not super cheap but not bad if they're not blunt, seller also has a metric set.

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Minute-Ma...3D221583853168
    A new set from the US will cost around US$350 plus freight, so not too bad. Broaches are one of those occasional use tools so provided they did not come from a production environment I suspect that they would still be reasonably sharp. I bought mine second hand and haven't had a problem. From the information I've just looked at I think 5/16 listed is probably 3/8" but that's minor.

    I have a couple of sets of metric and imperial broaches so if a member has a one off hole that needs a key way I can probably assist. Larger key ways can be done on a shaper but for the small ones broaching is the way to go.

    Michael

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    Bigger machines with morse tapers like some radial drills and of course horizontal borers, have a second slot which is to retain tools via a retainer key...
    One of my boring heads arrived with a MT5 taper (with tang) adapter on it. I can only assume some brave soul drove it in a radial arm drill. No second retaining key though. I think once you have a decent size taper, the forces from a boring bar become small enough not to worry the retention.

    On the subject of which part drives a MT (the taper should take the torque, in the imperfect world we live in, invariably the tang contributes - let's not start that argument again) I have a counterfeit brand name 23mm drill with a beautifully twisted tang - the taper was not correct so the tang has done the work.

    Michael

  7. #36
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    Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.

  8. #37
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    Default Denbigh horizontal mill



    Home > Barossa Area > Springton > Miscellaneous Goods > Ad ID 1058122249


    Milling Machine Lathe The Denbigh

    $500.00

    Springton SA 5235






  9. #38
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    Default ERIKSON COLLET CHUCK ISO 30 TAPER & 9 METRIC COLLETS



    Home > Mount Barker Area > Kanmantoo > Tools & DIY > Other Tools & DIY > Ad ID 1037630417




    ERIKSON COLLET CHUCK ISO 30 TAPER & 9 METRIC COLLETS

    $80.00

    South Australia 5252





  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael G View Post
    On the subject of which part drives a MT (the taper should take the torque, in the imperfect world we live in, invariably the tang contributes - let's not start that argument again) I have a counterfeit brand name 23mm drill with a beautifully twisted tang - the taper was not correct so the tang has done the work.
    The fact the taper twisted should settle any argument once and for all, as that's what they will do if they take any significant torque, they will twist, sometimes off completely if the lock of the taper fails catastrophically! Sadly most of us have seen the results of what happens when a tang takes a load

    For others who rely on Google for all that is wise in the world may like to consider why, if a tang is so important to prevent a taper from slipping and scoring the tapers, there's not one on the other end? A Morse taper and a Jacobs taper are both very similar in angle, both around 1:20, I have never seen a Jacobs taper with a tang. Yet at the other end, with a far longer and theoretically therefore more secure taper, there's a tang. Similarly, many early milling machines are Morse taper, they could easily pass a draw bar through a tang, they don't. Never seen or heard of one that takes a tang, the drawbar goes directly down in to the end of the Morse taper and the taper is ejected (sometimes with difficulty in my experience) via the drawbar. The tang is there to get the taper out. That's it, no other reason, move on. Indeed if the tang does twist, it can be a right SOB to get out as they sometimes get stuck in there!

    Google can be a wonderful tool, but the problem with it that it can just perpetuate rubbish and misinformation that just gets accepted as gospel without considering if it makes logical common sense.

  11. #40
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    Ueee is offline Blacksmith, Cabinetmaker, Machinist, Messmaker
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    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    Isn't that the same one thats been for sale for ages?
    I remember discussing the other lathe he has with the 4 feed rods/lead screws/switch rods.
    1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete F View Post
    The fact the taper twisted should settle any argument once and for all, as that's what they will do if they take any significant torque, they will twist, sometimes off completely if the lock of the taper fails catastrophically! Sadly most of us have seen the results of what happens when a tang takes a load

    For others who rely on Google for all that is wise in the world may like to consider why, if a tang is so important to prevent a taper from slipping and scoring the tapers, there's not one on the other end? A Morse taper and a Jacobs taper are both very similar in angle, both around 1:20, I have never seen a Jacobs taper with a tang. Yet at the other end, with a far longer and theoretically therefore more secure taper, there's a tang. Similarly, many early milling machines are Morse taper, they could easily pass a draw bar through a tang, they don't. Never seen or heard of one that takes a tang, the drawbar goes directly down in to the end of the Morse taper and the taper is ejected (sometimes with difficulty in my experience) via the drawbar. The tang is there to get the taper out. That's it, no other reason, move on. Indeed if the tang does twist, it can be a right SOB to get out as they sometimes get stuck in there!

    Google can be a wonderful tool, but the problem with it that it can just perpetuate rubbish and misinformation that just gets accepted as gospel without considering if it makes logical common sense.
    Seconded...........
    No tang = no ejection via the drift key slot.

    Matt
    Warning Disclaimer

  13. #42
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    Default Gingery lathe giveaway - Townsville

    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...R0cGNJZAMxNDM-

    Thats a horrible link - zillions of characters long

    Post on Yahoo forums, a bloke in Townsville wants to give away his almost finished gingery lathe for free

    Even if it was an awful terrible nasty thing you'd get some lumps of aluminium out of it.


    Bill

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete F View Post
    The fact the taper twisted should settle any argument once and for all, as that's what they will do if they take any significant torque, they will twist, sometimes off completely if the lock of the taper fails catastrophically! Sadly most of us have seen the results of what happens when a tang takes a load

    For others who rely on Google for all that is wise in the world may like to consider why, if a tang is so important to prevent a taper from slipping and scoring the tapers, there's not one on the other end? A Morse taper and a Jacobs taper are both very similar in angle, both around 1:20, I have never seen a Jacobs taper with a tang. Yet at the other end, with a far longer and theoretically therefore more secure taper, there's a tang. Similarly, many early milling machines are Morse taper, they could easily pass a draw bar through a tang, they don't. Never seen or heard of one that takes a tang, the drawbar goes directly down in to the end of the Morse taper and the taper is ejected (sometimes with difficulty in my experience) via the drawbar. The tang is there to get the taper out. That's it, no other reason, move on. Indeed if the tang does twist, it can be a right SOB to get out as they sometimes get stuck in there!

    Google can be a wonderful tool, but the problem with it that it can just perpetuate rubbish and misinformation that just gets accepted as gospel without considering if it makes logical common sense.

    Pete, it may have escaped you that Jacobs tapers are usually used to attach chucks to an arbor. Something that is usually done only once and then lasts for the life of the chuck. Whereas Morse tapers are constantly swapped out and changed and are therefore subject to become dirty. Just think of your Hercus lathe tailstock.

    The problem with slipping Morse tapers is actually a problem of POOR WORKSHOP HYGIENE. Oil, dust, dirt, whatever, if not very carefully cleaned off both male and female taper surfaces WILL CAUSE SLIPPAGE.
    - If like on your Hercus lathe TS, there is nothing to catch the tang, then any slippage will cause scoring. And once scored, a Morse taper will keep slipping until you remove the score.
    - If there is a slot to catch the tang, then slippage can not happen, but the entire cutting forces have to be taken up by the tang, which may twist or break off.

    The one and only way to avoid this, are good workshop practices and workshop hygiene. Like NEVER use a tool with rust on its taper, ALWAYS remove dents or scores on a tool's taper before inserting them, ALWAYS carefully and methodically clean both male and female tapers before putting them together. Spend the money for a taper cleaner, that is a tapered wooden plug with chamois leather strips glued onto it to clean the insides of female tapers (you get them for Morse tapers as well as for ISO tapers and others). Never seen one? I am very sorry, now I have to use that dreaded Google to find a pic to show you, since my brain does not yet have an embedded scanner. Here you go:
    spindle_cleaner_group.jpg

    There are more reasons than dirt, dents, and scores that can cause slippage. Poorly made tapers from low cost Chinese and Indian makers have more recently become a source of slippage. Either the taper is slightly off the correct angle, or it has a step, or the grinding finish is way too coarse.

    And Pete, may I ask you to refrain in future from these childish Google versus practical experience comments? Practical experience is fine, but it is limited and can not provide all answers. The Internet evolved back in the 80's first in Univerities and technical colleges and research institutes, before it found its way into everyone's home. Eversince any reasearch work has become heavily dependant on the Internet and search engines. You are well advised to make better use of it yourself, rather than damn it.

  15. #44
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    Oh for goodness sake.

    Chris it may have escaped you that I provided clear and unambiguous examples of morse tapering being used in machines other than drills where no tang is used, I guess you missed that bit. In fact the ONLY place that comes to mind that they ARE used is in situations where there is no drawbar to eject the taper. However feel free to Google up examples where slots for tangs are fitted to milling machines for example. Furthermore you contradicted yourself in saying, quite correctly, that there is no slot for the tang in a Hercus for example. The tang (or something) is required nevertheless to eject the taper. That's what it does. That's ALL it does, and it has little capacity to transmit torque.

    How any of your rather lengthy discussion on taper "hygiene" relates to any of this is beyond me. Milling machine tooling is removed even more frequently that lathe tailstock tooling, is just as important to keep clean, is just as likely to spin in the taper, guess what, no tang. Why, because none is needed. Why, because there's instead a drawbar to eject it. Your argument doesn't even stand the most basic test of common sense!

    I can feel Google groaning again under the strain of your retort, so I'll let you have the last word as frankly I'm done with this. However while you're there type in "busted tailstock tang" or similar to see how good they are are stopping a taper from spinning. I've tried to illustrate how logically what you're saying makes no sense whatsoever, and encouraged you to think critically about it for yourself instead of just perpetuating some nonsense you read courtesy of Google. But frankly I'm done with your seemingly incessant need to contradict everything anyone ever says on this board. Over to you, care factor zero in what you have to say about it as I'm off to USE my machines

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