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Thread: Bessler's Wheel

  1. #46
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    (.425 * .75) * 9.8 = 3.12 N-m's

    (.50 * .75) * 9.8 = 3.675 N-m's

    That's the correct math for 2 levers lifting 2 weights. What would need to be found out is how much downward force a weight has when it is 10 cm's from top center.
    Trigonometry states the weight 10 cm's befote TC (top center) only has 20% of it's mass as force.
    If that is correct and 20% is significantly
    less than 0.5 N-m's of torque then it might work.

    Jim

    p.s., a build like this can have the grind stone added after this build is finished. So if it doesn't work that's okay because I do believe all of the weights might have been retracted using a grind stone. This is because it would allow for more Conservation of Angular Momentum.
    Last edited by James_; 7th Mar 2017 at 12:05 PM. Reason: adding a cpmment

  2. #47
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    The attached drawing shows how a roller can retract a weight. At the same time a dowel can connect the roller to the grind stone. If you look at Mt 26 it shows a cord holding the weight wheel in place. The way I configured (rigged as in rigging would be the proper way to say it) the lines, they will sag a little but will keep the roller in it’s position.
    And this is where the dowel being attached to a dowel that is centered will pull the roller assembly in that direction so it will retract. And with a first attempt only the 2 weights not on moving levers will be retracted starting at 6 o’clock (BC, Bottom Center).
    An Ant Burr once told me to salvage my builds to save on the cost of building. That’s why I now try to design my builds so they can be modified and become a progressive build. This means there are a lot of mechanics that can be added to a wheel but to start with everything will be kept to a minimum.


    Jim

    p.s., am hoping I'll be in the hospital today. If so then I'll be
    offline for a short while. And this will give everyone a chance
    to review what I've posted.

    By the way, with this design there is a grind stone on each side of the stand.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by James_; 8th Mar 2017 at 01:41 AM. Reason: forgot something

  3. #48
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    A couple of links to some of Bessler's writings and other information about his work.

    I believe he is describing his 60 rpm wheel and that it is a poem to apologize for his destroying it.
    Bessler's Apologia Poetica

    Johann Bessler - Orffyreus

  4. #49
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    The link is to a page on besslerwheel dot com. Johann Bessler - Orffyreus - The First Law

    The reason given, The first law is often formulated by stating that the change in the internal energy of a closed system is equal to the amount of heat supplied to the system, minus the amount of work done by the system on its surroundings. Equivalently, perpetual motion machines of the first kind are impossible.

    And what Conservation of Momentum says about it; Linear momentum is also a conserved quantity, meaning that if a closed system is not affected by external forces, its total linear momentum cannot change.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum#Conservation

    An this means hat if the Earth transfers momentum to a perpetual wheel that he total momentum of that closed system (the Earth and the perpetual machine) remain the same.


    With my medical situation, I have an appt. with a surgeon on April 11th. They are going to try to move my appointment to an earlier date. So tomorrow I'll go back to discussing the simplest way a basic wheel might be built.

  5. #50
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    I'm only showing the bottom of the wheel's rim because of the text I added at the top. It's this catch and release mechanism that might allow this concept to work. The trebuchet has a weight lifted in a similar fashion which is one reason why I like it. Also since the weight does not bind while being retracted, that would be momentum that is conserved or saved.
    I will detail the catch and release mechanism more. I will give everyone a couple of days to consider how the dowel moves from the grind stone to a ring attached to the wheel. This shown as being completely circular but I will remove the excess part of the ring. This will allow everyone to see which part of the ring matters.
    A piston type kicker will be needed to move the dowel from the grind stone to the inner ring. Why this is important is because as soon as that happens the 2 levers will drop lifting the top weight to the over balanced position.

    Jim

    edited to add; the grind stone will be attached to the stand which is not shown.
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    Last edited by James_; 11th Mar 2017 at 06:22 AM. Reason: clarifying comment

  6. #51
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    I'm showing how the dowel can be "locked' in place and then released. A simple toggle on both sides of the wheel can kick the dowel onto the ring attached to the wheel. This means that the ring only needs to be long enough so that when the dowel sits on it's stop it has to stay there.
    There will be 2 dowels, one for each weight being lifted. The unique aspect about this is that each retraction line can go 180° around the wheel and connect to the other line. This will help both lines to stay in a groove that goes around the outside of the grind stone.
    I think when people understand how this part works everything else will "fall" into place.


    Jim

    edited to add; the toggle might need to be on the ring that rotates with the wheel. If it rotates 45° downward then a dowel on the ring would be able to push it down and out of the way.
    This is because a 2.5 cm long toggle would stick out about 1.75 cm and that would allow for clearance.
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    Last edited by James_; 12th Mar 2017 at 03:29 AM. Reason: change pic

  7. #52
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    The drawing shows how if a weight is retracted at an angle there is resistance. This is one reason why retraction is at 90°. This should allow the shorter path taken to allow for extra energy. This would also allow for conservation of angular momentum.
    The link is to a time line of what Bessler did. There is also a link to his first official inspection. With what I have designed, it is about 1/2 the diameter of what Bessler is said to have built.
    As far as design work goes, there isn't much more to add until I can start building again. And this means that about the only thing left to discuss is how science would allow for it to work. With a basic demonstration, having 3 weights in a fixed position and having one weight retract would give a good idea whether or not this could work. It would require a grind stone on each side of a wheel/disc. And with the retractable weight, the opposing side of the wheel could have weight added to keep the wheel balanced.


    Jim


    Johann Bessler - Orffyreus - Timeline of Events
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #53
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    This is a basic test anyone can do. The reason for 3 pulleys is to balance the test levers/wheel.
    If someone tries it without retracting the wait you will find out that there will be a rotation of about 90°.
    With the retraction, if the 2 levers rotating stop themselves because the retraction dowel is not released
    then extra energy is being realized. It is possible to add a release for the dowel that catches on the grind
    stone so that it sits in the lever that moves to the 6 o'clock position. This would prevent inertia from moving the
    retracted weight outward again.
    And with this, anything on the lever moving from 6 o'clock to 9 o'clock will need to be on the lever moving from
    3 o'clock to 6 o'clock.

    Jim

    with the pulleys on the levers, they should both be in the same position. The support for the pulley between the
    2 levers does not need to be counter balanced for this test/demonstration.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by James_; 15th Mar 2017 at 05:24 AM. Reason: edited to point out a mistake I made

  9. #54
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    With the basic lever test in the previous post, it would show the design in the attached image or a wheel would have the potential to work.
    If anyone tries the basic retraction, first if they have one weight at 3 o'clock and one at 6 o'clock, there will be close
    to a 90° degree rotation so the 2 weights would be at 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock. This is why a 1 kg weight at 1 meter has
    9.8 N-m's of torque, this is because it could lift another 1 kg weight 1 meter.
    And if the retraction is tested and extra force is found then a basic over balanced or perpetual motion device might be
    possible. With the retraction, if the weight was not retracted 90° to the axle then it would bind. An example of this is if
    the pulley lifting/retracting it was off to one side or another then the weight would also be pulled into the arm it's on.
    I'll give everyone some time to think about this.


    Jim

    added; there would be a ramp going from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock. This is because if there is extra energy to be had then there would need to be a
    couple of weights between 9 and 3 to allow for the time it takes for a weight to roll from one side to the other. And it would show that only 4 arms
    with only 2 weights at a time would be on them.

    The 4 armed diagram is an example. If there is extra energy then the wheel could rotate enough so that the weight at 9 o'clock will roll onto the ramp while the weight at 3 o'clock could roll into the arm it's next to. This shows why extra energy in the basic test would be important if it's there to be had.

    edited to add; With what I’ve discussed, 25% of the force generated by the falling weight might be extra energy. If so then lifting one weight higher than another weight falls not only would be possible but would also let such a wheel rotate quickly. This is because the over balanced weight goes from all the way out to half way in and the average is ¾. And the test that is mentioned would show if that much energy can be conserved as either angular momentum or just as momentum of the rotating wheel.
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    Last edited by James_; 16th Mar 2017 at 06:56 AM. Reason: add comment for clarification

  10. #55
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    Default Design Template

    With the attached image, it is a design template. When I show how various parts can be used so the basic OU design can be built, the template will allow me to show 3 views. They will be the front, side and top views. With the basic design a shuttle cock will be able to be used. This is what can move a weight closer to center and when empty it can move outward so that in an over balanced position a weight can be moved into it.
    I will be showing how a "kicker" can move a round weight either onto or off of the ramp. It will be a basic design because with something like this it might be best to not try and over complicate it. The 2nd image is a simple rocker that when a part of the wheel pushes it down it will rotate into a weight. A counter balance might be needed so it will rock back into position after it moves a weight. With something like this just a little extra weight should work.


    Jim

    The 3rd drawing shows an arm that would act as a counter balance. A stop can be added to control / limit it's range of motion.
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    Last edited by James_; 19th Mar 2017 at 04:35 AM. Reason: add another drawing

  11. #56
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    The diagram shows 2 sockets for the weights to be in. This will require some tinkering when a prototype or wheel is built. They can use drawer slides with one on top and one on bottom. with something like this as the weight on the right rolls in, it can help to pop the other weight out. This is because the weight rolling in will need to sit in the socket, a hole is one example. Then if it depresses a button another button can push upward. And this means there would be 2 set ups as the wheel would repeat that after rotating 180°. The 2 sockets would need to be connected so that as the one moving from 6 o'clock to 9 o'clock it will be moving the opposing weight socket outward. With a couple of pulleys it's something basic.
    I think this is about as simple or basic as a perpetual wheel design can get with the intent of it working. I would see about doing an animation but will wait until I can build it. And if in the meantime if someone wants to try it they can.


    James_
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    Last edited by James_; 20th Mar 2017 at 05:34 AM. Reason: add info and change drawings

  12. #57
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    Default Resistance in Retraction

    The attached drawing shows how force is lost when retracting a weight. Because the fulcrum is behind the lever as the weight rolls upward / inward it is also being pulled from behind. This would mean that no energy or work is saved by retracting the weight. This is where (hopefully) energy is conserved by retracting the weight using tension. When a weight is pulled inward / upward using resistance then no work is being performed. This is because the fulcrum does not move while the line is at right angles to the weight.
    This means from the center of the axle to the point on the grindstone it has stopped on creates a right angle. The 2nd image shows all right angles. The line that goes from right to left does not have to be at a right angle because the line going down to the weight is parallel to the line stopped on the grindstone. And if it takes anyone a day or 2 or more of considering this, don't feel bad, I've taken several years to learn this.
    Between liking Bessler's work (will add one of Bessler's drawings with a few comments) and wanting to show one woman a build she helped inspire it does allow for an interesting hobby as well as a unique way of learning wood working even though I am still a novice.


    Jim

    With Mt 20 the work created by a falling lever only needs to rotate a weight a little past top center for gravity to cause it to fall to an overbalanced positioned. This means that Mt 20 might have the potential to work as drawn. This is where understanding what roles torque and work play in a design like this is important. And if it's okay with everyone I'll explain the math behind this. And with torque,
    1 pound inch = 0.112 984 829 33 newton meter

    In situations like this I find inch-pound (in.lbs.) to be a simpler reference but will use both metric and SAE (American) values. And with Mt 20, it might be a good design as it should help everyone to understand the more complicated build that I've been discussing. And most importantly how momentum is conserved.

    With in.lbs., 1 lb. = 0.453592 so an in.lb. is 453.6 grams at 2.54 cm's.
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    Last edited by James_; 21st Mar 2017 at 01:47 AM. Reason: add a metric conversion

  13. #58
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    The link is to a video that I made. The build was using 2 opposing weights. it was to test and consider how momentum can be saved. I used something similar to the grindstone to pull the overbalanced weight closer to center. And as everyone will notice, it's rotation went from 3 o'clock to close to 9 o'clock. With what I have shown the momentum would be conserved going from 6 o'clock to 9 o'clock.
    When one weight is overbalanced it accelerates itself and the opposing weight. The increase in force / velocity in the opposing weight is conservation of momentum. And when the over balanced weight is retracted some then both weights can spin in a balanced position. That uses less energy for them to rotate. And the cam at top is similar to the grindstone Bessler mentioned.
    With Mt 20, a different thread might be best since that would be explaining how torque and work are calculated. And if it's levers were moved then how would that help. That's some of what have done and with this, if it is found to work then the only way to make something go faster or capable of doing more work would be in understanding some of the math behind it.


    Jim

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLR0N542BCk

    p.s., with my medical situation i have let some doctors know that if I hear nothing by the end of the month then I'll need to motivate doctors myself ;-)
    Last edited by James_; 22nd Mar 2017 at 01:19 AM. Reason: to clarify or better explain

  14. #59
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    Red face

    This is another video that shows a somewhat complete design. Although in this build I did not give Conservation of Angular Momentum much thought. It is a learning process. What I did learn was that using imitation sinew worked better than anything else for retraction lines. I probably spent too much time working with either wire or other types of lines. Imitation sinew is as flexible as it can be while having no stretching to it. And nylon fishing line which is difficult to see is about the only other thing that I know of that works as well.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNGw46sG6EA

    edited to add; I did tell one person that once I figured out what Bessler knew (IMO) then as some of my other postings show I could work on improving my wood working. Kind of why I'll probably always say that I am a novice. There is a lot to learn and that does go into wood working.
    Last edited by James_; 24th Mar 2017 at 05:09 AM. Reason: add a personal comment

  15. #60
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    This will be a slow walk through on how I calculate torque and work. What needs to be remembered with Bessler is that 2 opposing levers work together. And with Mt 20 both levers need to drop as a minimum 1/2 of the lift (rotation) of the weight on the right.
    With this the opposing levers will be able to be shifted to decrease the amount of work needed to rotate them (the wheel) so they can perform work (drop) again.


    Jim
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