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Thread: Bessler's Wheel

  1. #76
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    Two problems I've noticed:
    1) massless Rod - everything has mass
    2) frictionless pivot

    cheers

  2. #77
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    Lappa,
    I've reconfigured the mechanics. I've posted it in BesslerWheel.com :: View topic - Theoretical Perpetual Pendulum [ Guest ]
    You are right about 1. This is where both bob supports would need to be identical.
    And this is where my medical situation is causing me a lot of frustration, I miss having my shop to work in.


    Jim

  3. #78
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    @All,
    This is the mechanics I'll use for the build. I will need to see about an ileostomy first though. With this I'll take a cue from Gus and use some brass tubes. Besides adding a nice touch to the design they'll allow for a simple catch and release mechanism that can move with the pendulum.
    With the pulley on the arm to the left, when the arm rotates downward the pulley will keep the catch and release mechanism positioned in a straight line with the weight. This will allow the line above/to the right of the pulley to be aligned always with fulcrum B. Without the pulley then as the arm n the left swings upward fulcrum B would be pulling back on it's retraction line and this would be pulling the weight in the opposite direction the arm is rotating instead of moving with it.


    Jim
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    Last edited by James_; 25th Apr 2017 at 01:56 AM. Reason: correct spelling

  4. #79
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    @All,
    This is as simple as it gets. With the grindstone it is aligned so that when the arm is in the down position the retraction line will drop straight down.
    And when the arm rotates 90 to go 6 o'clock to 9 o'clock the retraction line is on top of the weight wheel. With the grindstone it does need it's bottom and right side to align with the top of the weight wheel.
    With this, a 10 cm radius on the grindstone allows for a 5 cm retraction. And with the levers, if the weight wheel moves from 50 cm's to 45 cm's away from the center of the axle, that should be enough for it to work. And the grindstone can be changed to increase the amount of retraction. This would mean the space the weight wheel moves in would need to be adjusted as well.
    With the "V" it is a chamfer that allows for 2 lines to slip off of the grindstone allowing the weight wheel to roll outward. If guides are placed between the grindstone and the weight wheel then when the arm swings down the lines will also fall back into place. And using 2 6 mm x 3.75 mm x 50 or 60 cm boards would allow for the 2 arms to have their basic shape. Then sections can be added to maintain separation. I'll explain this over the next few days.
    If anyone else wants to try this they can. I'll be able to order the weights (may need to buy lead online to melt) so will not be able to do any building for about 3 weeks. And this would be a basic demonstration of the principle that Bessler used IMO.
    And if the grindstone stops the upward swinging then the movement in the opposite direction will not reach 90 or 3 o'clock. And this is where it will need to be seen how much retraction is necessary.


    Jim
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  5. #80
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    @All,
    Mt 51 seems to work well with this. As you can see in the pictures the swinging pendulum rotates the wheel around it. As for the grindstone, it can be counter weighted as well as geared so it will try to lift itself. And since a weight can't lift itself the grindstone would stay in place.
    And just for fun Mt 85. Could a set of tongs pump enough water to power a water wheel ?
    I'll be trying to find out what I need to do to make the weights I need. The rest of what I need to do to test this is not that difficult to do.


    Jim



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    Last edited by James_; 27th Apr 2017 at 01:09 AM. Reason: remove comment

  6. #81
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    @All,
    I'll need to build this one first because it is much simpler.

    edited to add; if this design doesn't work then I can change it
    into the double pendulum design and at least I'll know it doesn't work.

    I did learn a new word and it is antinomy. With this, it will work because of the work the over balanced weight performs
    and it will not work because the leverage across the axle is the same while the ratio of movement isn't.

    Jim
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    Last edited by James_; 28th Apr 2017 at 01:16 AM. Reason: add comment

  7. #82
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    @All,
    Once the 2 levers drop lifting the top weight the principle behind the pendulum will raise the bottom weight. To avoid confusion, the black circle is considered where force is calculated from. One reason why is the long levers have their fulcrums there and another is it shows where Conservation of Angular Momentum comes into play. This last part is when the bottom weight moves closer towards the middle of the wheel.
    With the top weight, the work needed to lift it is mass * 9.8 m/s - mv^2/r. This is where demonstrating that the double pendulum concept works would show how this works as well.
    And between now and the middle of the month I'll be working on the design for the double pendulum. I may need to find out if someone in North America would be willing to make a couple of pieces because the side of the radius I need will need to be 90 and if I try to work this by hand then then I won't get it right. If you look at a round piece of wood, the side needs to be 90. I will be able to pay for them as well as shipping.

    Jim
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  8. #83
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    With the math, if a 90 arc segment is 8.6 inches or 21.8 cm's if it's radius is 5.5 14 cm's inches then a retraction of 3.1 inches/ 7.9 cm's is possible. This is because of 90 of rotation.
    This also means that if a line hangs down from the top of the brown section it will hang 3.1 or 7.9 cm's inches below the radius block.
    I'll be posting the build design so if the math proves out then everyone will know how to make one if they want. And since this is in pursuit of getting what might actually have been a Bessler wheel anyone can build this.

    I've ordered this block. It will be a bit of a challenge to make 2 wheel weights but will try a simple design.
    http://www.vendio.com/stores/Maple-Oatmeal-Wooden-Blocks/item?lid=27010015
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    Last edited by James_; 9th May 2017 at 04:52 AM. Reason: add metric measurements

  9. #84
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    @All,
    Most likely a line will need to be tied off/anchored above the 90 arc (from 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock). This will allow it to slip off off of the arc segment more easily. I'll be using a 5.5 inch radius and a 20 inch length with 12 ounce weights. This translates to about 14 cm's, 50 cm's and 340 grams (350 will be close enough).
    The distance/length is center of mass to center of axis. The weight will hang from the board on top of it when it is at the 9 o'clock position. Having 2 different lines wrapping around it will allow for this. The retraction lines will be 2 different lines. The supporting lines will sag. This can give a slight downhill slope for the weight to roll away from the axis of rotation or away from the axle.
    A v-block will help the lines move outward (to the sides of the retraction arc segment) so they can slip loose. This can be attached to the arc segment or the stand itself. And this is about the simplest possible concept. Since I am in need of surgery am not sure about how things will go on my end. Because one doctor didn't do anything this means it's not another doctor's problem. How in America a doctor avoids a malpractice suit. Had damage from radiation therapy and my then surgeon told me he didn't cause that is why he did nothing.
    Back to Bessler's wheel, with the weight wheels, what might be easiest is to drill a hole through wood that is 6.25 cm's thick. Then if a hole 2.5 cm's in diameter is drilled through it it will hold 350 grams of lead. With this it might be easier to have the wood round before pouring molten lead in it. This is easy enough to do if a wood block that has 2 halves has a hole through it so it can be clamped around the round wood to have lead poured in it.
    It will be strange to have the leg/weight on the right just to be dead weight but this is because as the leg on the left swings upwards it's resistance will decrease because it's weight will be reeled in.


    Jim

    30.6 cm^3 = 350 grams
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    Last edited by James_; 12th May 2017 at 03:16 AM. Reason: change picture

  10. #85
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    The image shows about how I'll keep the wheel weight in it's proper position. The blue line will control the way the weight moves towards and away from center while the red line is what retracts and releases it. The link is to a short video which shows a part of the shop I had. It was about 2 1/2 meters by 4 meters. For what I'll be doing it will be on a very limited basis. The alternative is to not be working at it.
    And with what I was building in the video, it did help me to realize that the secret was in how the weights were moved and I'll get back to that build one day. I have a design I call the A.C. Bessler and this is working towards that goal.


    Jim

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aCfloSpyMU
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  11. #86
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    This is a bit better and simpler design. Appearance will matter, will want to have a good go of it.


    Jim
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  12. #87
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    @All,
    Am going for a simpler and better looking design. A shorter more precise motion like Milkovic has with his I think will work better.

    edited to add a little bit better image. It has a 60 degree spread between the 2 legs of the pendulum. There's not much to it because it's a fairly simple concept. And if this works then it would allow the 2 levers to lift the top weight when used in a wheel. This would only be showing that momentum can be conserved when a weight is swing upwards just as it would be moving in a rotating wheel.
    Most likely where the line hangs from would need to be above the arc segment so it can slip off of it and back on easier. That's something that can be played around with once the double pendulum is built. I have posted this in a wood working forum and since it is in pursuit of Bessler's wheel anyone can build it. I'll need to wait until next month to start on it.

    p.s., I like the way it looks like the symbol for the Freemasons that Bessler has in many of his drawings. Also 2 lines might need to be wrapped around the weight so it is suspended from the part in front of it with the left leg. With the right leg it can be held in one position the same way. If the line goes under the weight then over the top and under it again it will roll between the 2 places the line is secured to.


    Jim


    posted this on besslerwheel.com
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    Last edited by James_; 14th May 2017 at 07:57 AM. Reason: add comment

  13. #88
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    T = 1.52s Large Amplitude
    T = 1.44s


    This is from the link on the first post. If the average distance from the fulcrum going up is 45 cm's while the downward swing is 50 cm's then it will require a difference of 0.08s. This means that the pendulum can swing a little higher. Going through a series of numbers 80 came up. I find that a little difficult to believe but is the answer the calculator for a pendulum's swing came up with.


    Large Amplitude Pendulum


    Jim

  14. #89
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  15. #90
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    I am hoping I'll be able to start back on this at the end of the month. I am simplifying everything and started anew thread at besslerwheel dot com. In a way I am trying to give as many people as possible a chance to understand what Bessler knew.
    Once I have something to show I'll also post it in here.

    BesslerWheel.com :: View topic - Simple Tests [ Guest ]


    Jim

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