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Thread: Bessler's Wheel

  1. #91
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    @All,
    Sorry about the prolonged absence. Am getting better and have reserved shop space for the 1st of Aug. I did discuss somethings with a friend of mine and with this it is possible someone could build it while I am still building mine. If I am given credit for realizing the design then this isn't a problem because it is Bessler's wheel. And with the design I'll be building it will be showing how Bessler used both Conservation of Momentum and Conservation of Angular Momentum.
    This will be an important build because I am expecting it to work. And work well. If it can rotate at 15 to 20 RPM's then I'll be happy with it. There is a lot of expectations with a perpetual wheel and this would help people to not be disappointed by something that rotates at only a few rpm.
    I have also simplified the design so it will be inexpensive to build and might only require a tape measure, a compound square, a drill and a jig saw. And clamps of course. I'll also be posting this at besslerwheel.com using SAE measurements. With me, I like using SAE to calculate torque and work and for everything else prefer the metric system.
    And with this design the grindstone might not be necessary.

    James

    Bessler's Wheel link; BesslerWheel.com :: View topic - Simple Tests [ Guest ]

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  3. #92
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    Good to see you back on deck James....

  4. #93
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    Since the 1st will be here soon enough I'll go over some of the math that I'll be using in my build. And if someone else tries this and it does work, don't forget about me, okay ?
    The drawing shows 2 weights dropping 8 inches and all 4 weights weigh 12 ounces. Inch pounds, abbreviated in.lbs. is 2.54 cm * 454 grams.
    With the work the drawing shows 12 ounces dropping 8 inches is 6 in.lbs. of work. This simply means that another weight can perform 6 in.lbs. of work. To give those not familiar with this an idea, if a weight is lifted at a 2:1 ratio then a 6 ounce weight can be lifted 16 inches or if a weight is lifted at a 1:2 ratio a 24 ounce weight can be lifted 3 inches.
    In metric terms, at a 2:1 ratio a 454 gram weight dropping 15 cm's can lift a 227 gram weight 30 cm's or a 908 gram weight 7 1/2 cm's. With this wheel this is important to understand. This will help to show how using a "grindstone" saves work/energy/momentum.

    And if you can afford a sheet of plywood 1.25 m x 2.5 meter, have it cut into 1/3rd of the 2.5 m length and just cut out a wheel (rim and spokes) that way. I'll be assembling rectangular pieces that I'll trim. This will use less wood. I'll be cutting the spokes out after the rim is trimmed. This is so the spokes can be off set to allow for the grindstone to be positioned to be inside of the rim. The grindstone will be mounted on the stand.
    I will be pouring my own weights I may just use 400 gram weights and plan on having them move 12.5 cm's. Then if anything (meaning it works) then it should rotate quickly enough. And if I'm going that way then the over balanced weight will rotate 40 cm's from the axle. If so then this might turn out to be an all metric build. I think though I need to do this mostly for A.C. Barnes. Might be a mistake on my part but then I've made enough.



    Jim
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  5. #94
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    With how I am going to construct the rim, I will be using 12 pieces. The rectangles will have 15 angles on each end. when joined together they will form a 30 angle. after assembly it will be possible to trim excess material to make a circular rim. As shown on my previous build it's not necessary.
    By having the pieces 6.75 cm's wide I can trim a circular rim that will be 3.75 cm's wide. I think it will help the appearance considerably. What will take some people by surprise is that the spokes will not join the rim where 2 sections meet. Instead the spokes will mount in the middle of a section. This will allow for 12 dowels to be positioned between the 2 sides of the rims and also to have 4 plates for where the spokes will be.
    This will make more sense once I am able to have it assembled. One reason why I am planning on taking my time on this is to get it right. Also I plan on pouring my own weights and will save that for last. For anyone who hasn't tried anything like this before and is considering it, I would suggest using drawer slides or something similar as that would be easier to mount.
    Later in the week I'll explain the math and how the grindstone saves work. With the levers it is something that has been over looked and might allow this design to work without the grindstone.



    Jim
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    Last edited by James_; 24th Jul 2017 at 06:16 AM. Reason: change picture

  6. #95
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    James,
    I have been reading a very interesting book. It is "The White Road" by a bloke called Edmund de Waal. It is really a potted history about the manufacture of porcelain, in China and later on in Europe. I found the bit about the Europeans trying to copy the Chinese porcelain in Dresden very interesting. The two main guys doing this work were Tschirnhaus and Boettger. They were more or less doing this at the same time Bessler was around. I think that if you read de Waal's book, particularly the parts about Boettger you might get some greater insight into Bessler.

    Regards
    SWK

  7. #96
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    @SWK, have placed a hold on the book at my local library. It could be that both Bessler and myself are misfits. And this gives us something to do.

    @All,
    With how the 2 levers are positioned it is a thought experiment. This is because if a weight travels around the outside of the wheel for 1/2 of a rotation (180) it travels R*Pi = D. If the fulcrum of the lever is the same distance from the axle as the weight is, then the weight travels R*Pi/2 = D. And since work is W = M*D then when a weight travels a lesser distance it requires less work to move it. There is a reason why being able to consider this is important and it explains why a "grindstone" is important as well.
    I have some things I need to do over the next couple of days because of my medical situation. It is something I will most likely need surgery to resolve and with Bessler's wheel or because of it wood working will most likely be in my future. You know, how get get something out of what I've been through and a decent wood shop would be nice.
    I will go over some definitions I'll be using since some are similar.
    CoG = center of gravity
    This is to calculate a weight's position from the center of the axle or the center of it's fulcrum
    CoM = conservation of momentum
    This is basically the Earth's gravity being converted into acceleration because of gravity as far as Bessler's wheel goes
    CoAM = conservation of angular momentum
    This law of physics is magical. When momentum is conserved as angular momentum it's velocity increases by a factor of 1/2R = 4v. This means that if a weight is rotating at a radius of 40 cm's and it's radius is reduced to 20 cm's then the weight will move 4 times faster. The link is to a figure skater demonstrating this principle of physics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmnkQ2ytlO8
    This is where most people get lost when discussing Bessler's design and it is this which will show why the grindstone is so important to Bessler's wheel. He wrote this about it;
    Around the firmly placed horizontal axis is a rotating disc (low or narrow cylinder) which resembles a grindstone. This disc can be called the principle piece of my machine. Accordingly, this wheel consists of an external wheel (or drum) for raising weights which is covered with stretched linen.
    http://besslerwheel.com/writings/das_triumphans.html

    When this last part is understood I think everybody will find it amazing what he realized. At times I have been compared to a born again Christian because I have been sure that Bessler was successful. And this build should prove that Bessler knew enough to have done what he claims in his writings. He was also a wood worker and later on I'll post pictures of some of his work that has survived even if it's just the windmills that he built. I am not sure if any of his clocks have but will check. As for me, if everything works out I'll just consider myself Bessler's #1 student.



    Jim
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  8. #97
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    @All,
    This is where the "grindstone" starts to matter. as noted in the drawing, the weight's path is 40% of that of it's fulcrum. all things being equal the over balance is equal to the drop of the levers. It probably won't rotate.
    The trick is with the grindstone retracting the lower weight that both levers can lift the top weight a little higher, about 50% and still have work left over. With these dimensions a retraction of about 12.5 cm's would be the maximum.
    This means that the weights on the levers can have their masses reduced to about 300 grams each, maybe even 250 grams.
    @250 grams each this means .5 kg lifting a .4 kg weight an equal height as the drop of both levers combined. And at this point the over balance is greater than the imbalance that created it. And if this works as I hope it will then this principal can be used to allow for even faster rotation. If the grindstone (I'll post it later) were in this drawing then the retraction would be more and the weights on the levers would be slightly smaller.

    @SWK, have started reading The White Road. I'm still in the prologue. One book I have read is called The Way back. It's interesting because the author talked to that person because he heard that the guy had seen a Yeti. As it turns out he said his sighting was after leaving a gulag in Russia and was almost through Nepal on his way to India and freedom. he was polish and imprisoned by Communist Russia. How The Long Walk became The Way Back - BBC News


    Jim
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  9. #98
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    I've simplified the design so a sheet of 6 mm thick plywood 60 cm x 60 cm can be used to cut out each side of the wheel with one piece.
    To the right of the hub the opposing weight can be seen. What is not shown at this time is the weight at top that both levers would lift or the weight at the bottom that would be retracted by the grindstone.
    By rotating a 60x60 sheet of plywood 45 it allows for a wheel with an outside dimension of about 80 cm's across. And since radii and straight lines are easy enough to cut making the wheel is simplified. For the 2 opposing levers I'll probably use a 1.25 cm thick plywood and use 2 pieces on each side so the fulcrum is 3.75 cm's thick. This allows for a space of about 4 cm's between the sides of the wheel.
    The lines to lift the top weight should be able to be attached to the weights. When the 2 levers drop they should create slack in the lines going to the weight at the bottom of the wheel. It is something that will seem strange until it is seen that it does work. The grindstone will be the same way.



    Jim
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  10. #99
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    The 2 sides would be held together by 6 cm dia. dowels. The 2 round weights would roll in towards or center or out to the over balanced position.
    With the grindstone on the stand the weights would extend past the 2 sides of the wheel. The levers would be able to lift the round weights between the 2 halves of the wheel. I will need to design a basic catch and release mechanism for the grindstone. It will need to hold the line in place while the weight is being retracted. Then at that time it can release the stop and a small notch can let the weight fall into it to hold it in place.
    The closest thing to this type of motion is the trebuchet and it can heave a Volkswagen the length of a football field.

    @SWK, I have thought of some subtitles that Mr. de Waal might have used instead of Journey Into An Obsession. It seems to be more of a love affair with porcelain with him than an obsession and he's letting us in on it. My suggestions for alternative subtitles are as follows;
    A Porcelain Peep Show
    My Tryst With China (double entendre, pun intended)
    From Shaolin to Kaolin


    As far as Bessler goes, he did say he built a wheel that rotated at 60 rpm. This means that he most likely used Conservation of Angular Momentum as this can double the amount of torque a weight produces. And with gravity torque is acceleration. And this all comes back to the grindstone concept/principal. I'll try not to go to much into physics. Got to discussing it in a climate change forum and we ended up discussing how gravity pushes light away from the Sun (Einstein's General Theory of Relativity). It also accelerates satellites going past planets. It'd be this latter aspect that would help to explain how a shorter radius increases the velocity of an object.
    And with this, when the top lever is off to the left the over balanced weight needs to be able to rotate the wheel. This is where both levers lifting one weight and the grindstone retracting the other weight will allow for this. it's a simple matter of leveraging a weight.


    Jim
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    Last edited by James_; 29th Jul 2017 at 05:07 AM. Reason: add comment about Einstein

  11. #100
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    I have a work space and will be collecting what I'll need to work with. I'll be happy to have the frame on a stand this month. I think I am going to
    use the bit more complex assembly. I have the time so might as well. Then if all goes well maybe next month I'll be able to finish it.


    Jim

  12. #101
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    Tomorrow I'm going to start on it. The first thing I'll need to do is to make a guide for my jigsaw. I'll also be able to use it for cutting a circle.
    I think my medical situation has become something that will get doctors to do something. I'll still be able to keep working on this. after I have some work done I'll post more. This way everyone will have an idea of what I'm trying to do as far as the wheel itself goes.



    Jim

  13. #102
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    I am getting some work done. Since I'm using a cordless jigsaw how much work I can do at one time will be limited. If I am able to get into my own place then things will go better.
    Each side of the rim will use 12 pieces. The rim will most likely be a circle with flat spots. This would allow me to have a little bit stronger rim. And I keep reminding myself that this
    is a prototype since nothing like it has been built except for what Bessler did if he was actually successful. If things work out then I'll have 12.5 cm's of retraction on the over balanced
    weight. This means that 2 levers will need to lift the opposing weight 12.5 cm's. To do this each lever only needs to drop 7.5 cm's.
    And the long straight piece is a guide for my jigsaw. I'll also be able to use it as a radius tool. All I'll need to do is add a tab on the right side. Then I'll have a place for my jigsaw to sit
    and with holes placed on the bottom of the guide I'll be able to saw any radius that I need. The last image is what I'm working towards. It will have 4 spokes.

    Jim
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    Last edited by James_; 18th Aug 2017 at 05:45 AM. Reason: add info

  14. #103
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    Am slowly getting more work done. I am hoping it will go a little quicker once I start gluing boards together for the rim. I'm going to try using a jigsaw blade for steel. It might leave a cleaner edge. The wood blade leaves the edges looking kind ratty p

  15. #104
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    You haven't said which jigsaw blade (for wood) you are using.
    Last time I looked there were about 30 different combinations of blade length, width, tooth pattern and cutting direction (up or down). If you are using a mix of ply and solid wood you may need 3 or 4 different blades to get clean edges most of the time.
    regards from Canada

    ian

  16. #105
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    I think I am going to have to wait until I am healthy (

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