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  1. #1
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    Default Don't over look the motor controls. Vintage Switch Gear

    Often the machine switches are only given a cursory thought when we rehab our machines. In the vintage world of motors and controls very little is on the net. I will be starting this thread here on motor controls in the industrial world past and present. Hoping to start a thread on Vintage controls and how to use them today . I have a number of them from around the world. If you think that the knowledge on vintage machines is thin it is almost nonexistent in motor controls . Hope there is an interest as this is one of the few avenues this Hobby can takes us. My focus with be on design but there are many aspects to cover.




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    All tools can be used as hammers

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  3. #2
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jgforsberg View Post
    Hope there is an interest as this is one of the few avenues this Hobby can takes us.
    I'm interested. I've acquired a 1940s MEM isolating switch to retrofit to my 1945 Wadkin PK (the original Brookhurst contactor is still functioning), and I'm currently (no pun intended) refurbing the 1970s MEM isolating switch and Crabtree contactor on my Preston bandsaw. When I say refurbing - I've de-rusted and repainted both boxes, and cleaned everything I can - but I'd love to know what to do with the contacts.

    I'd also be interested in ideas for remote "Stop" buttons in the circuits.

    But I think you may be more into designing replacement electrical systems to replace munted control gear?

    Cheers, Vann.
    Gatherer of rusty planes tools...
    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club .

  4. #3
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    Default

    post up what you got Vann. Contacts can be "silvered" so it not a good idea to file them. I have very early Brook PK switch gear that i can show
    All tools can be used as hammers

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgforsberg View Post
    Contacts can be "silvered" so it not a good idea to file them.
    A neighbour is a retired electrian. When I asked him about the contacts, he said not to file them. He said both sides of each contact end up taking the same shape ('spooning") so if you take to them with anything that alters that shape, you risk making problems. However I think he may be from the "if it ain broke, don't fix it" school of thought. Somewhere else I read to clean the contacts and sand them flat.

    I haven't touched them yet.

    Cheers, Vann.
    Gatherer of rusty planes tools...
    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club .

  6. #5
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vann View Post
    ... but I'd love to know what to do with the contacts...
    Depending on the cost you are prepared to spend, the contacts can be remade. This mob do it in Australia
    Repair, Refurbishing & Manufacture of Electrical Contacts | SBA Amalgamated
    If the MEM switch is common they might even have some remanufactered parts ready to go.

    There is probably someone in New Zealand does a similar thing

    Regards
    SWK

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by swk View Post
    Depending on the cost you are prepared to spend, the contacts can be remade.
    Thanks SWK. But that'll have to wait until I stuff them up first (or find some that are burnt out).

    I have also heard that a fibreglass rubber (eraser) can be used to clean the contacts without damaging them (drat - I used to have one of those in the 1980s when I worked as a draughtman - it got ditched when we changed to CAD )

    Cheers, Vann.
    Gatherer of rusty planes tools...
    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club .

  8. #7
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    Default

    Van I have about three or four of those identical . What you have there is not really motor control those are isolation / disconnect switches some of them with fuses . These are used in Advavce of the line load prior to motor control switches . Do you have motor control switches ?
    All tools can be used as hammers

  9. #8
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    Default

    I do like it that you guys are bothering with this and some looks in excellent condition but I do wonder about the safety of some old switch gear.

    It's none of my business what you do in your own shed and you blokes sound like you know what you are doing, but it's beyond most newbies to know what is safe and what isn't.
    Perhaps when you find it, some indication of what is not safe and what is not could be pointed out.
    The ∆/Y switch of a 1926 thicknesser full of brittle crumbling cloth covered wire we received at the mens shed springs to mind.
    At the mens shed we have 2 highly qualified sparkies and one is an elderly industrial sparky who has a good knowledge of old machinery but we still have a policy of replacing all old switch gear with new stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vann View Post
    And Yes, I'm very aware that the white fluffy stuff is almost certainly asbestos. I've carefully package up the larger bits and vacuumed up any remaining particals.
    Unless your vacuum cleaner has a real HEPA filter, asbestos dust is so fine it will pass straight through most vacuum cleaner filters and will now have contaminated where ever it was you did the vacuuming.
    Also now the vacuum cleaner is contaminated and will continue to emit these particles into whatever area it is used for the rest of its life time - even in a HEPA filtered unit the dust will be trapped and minced into finer dust and then emitted from the motor cooling loop etc. This is why vacuum cleaners like DC should be located or vented outside a shed.

    At the very least, before further use of that VC I would empty the VC, dispose of any bag/filter, and clean the Vacuum cleaner (all done outside wearing a P3 face mask).
    Perhaps a better way to deal with this is to use an old vacuum cleaner and then dispose of the whole vacuum cleaner.

  10. #9
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    Default

    Bob I use the old gear with VFDs . 10vts and milliamp controls . Most of the old gear is still perfectly fine certainly the disconnects which are just knife switches . Some of the very very old would need wiring replaced something you wouldn't want to have to pay your sparky to do .
    All tools can be used as hammers

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgforsberg View Post
    What you have there is not really motor control those are isolation / disconnect switches some of them with fuses . These are used in Advavce of the line load prior to motor control switches . Do you have motor control switches ?
    Yebut, without turning on the isolating switch, you don't have power to run your control gear .

    I don't know what the rules are in Aus, nor Canada, but over here you must have an isolating switch on or next to the machine, if it's permanently wired. My machines now have cords with plugs, and as such the isolating switches are remnants of their past. Maybe one day they'll be permanently wired again.

    The next few posts were going to be the control gear (and still will be). I thought long and hard before posting about the isolating switches here - I've now moved them to my "MEM Switch" thread.

    Cheers, Vann.
    Gatherer of rusty planes tools...
    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club .

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Unless your vacuum cleaner has a real HEPA filter, asbestos dust is so fine it will pass straight through most vacuum cleaner filters and will now have contaminated where ever it was you did the vacuuming.
    I am aware of the dangers of asbestos. I did my apprenticeship in an environment that had been exposed to asbestos contamination for over 40 years (railway workshops) and I've worked with asbestos myself. I've been tested for asbestosis on two occasions (so far nothing).

    The vacuuming was done with a vacuum system that exhausts outside of the house - still not ideal, but the amounts vacuumed were almost insignificant as most was collected and bagged, and most of the remainder wetted and washed away. The vacuuming was mostly to capture any disturbed particles in the air.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL
    At the mens shed we have 2 highly qualified sparkies and one is an elderly industrial sparky who has a good knowledge of old machinery but we still have a policy of replacing all old switch gear with new stuff.
    Like the machines themselves, most old electrical gear was very robustly made, and unlike things made in this throw away world (of limited resources), made to be serviced and/or repaired.

    To me, old switchgear is part of the picture. An old steam engine pulling the Australind, just wouldn't look quite right historically. Old machines, with modern switchgear, isn't where I want to go. Menz sheds have different aims.

    Cheers, Vann.
    Gatherer of rusty planes tools...
    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club .

  13. #12
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vann View Post
    Yebut, without turning on the isolating switch, you don't have power to run your control gear .

    I don't know what the rules are in Aus, nor Canada, but over here you must have an isolating switch on or next to the machine, if it's permanently wired. My machines now have cords with plugs, and as such the isolating switches are remnants of their past. Maybe one day they'll be permanently wired again.

    The next few posts were going to be the control gear (and still will be). I thought long and hard before posting about the isolating switches here - I've now moved them to my "MEM Switch" thread.

    Cheers, Vann.
    No they're appropriate for switchgear but there really considered in Canada building wiring . As you've noted a cord and plug become your physical disconnect . Those are generally copper bars and you can just clean those with scotch brighter sandpaper . I wouldn't worry too much about the broken piece of insulator that's not serious . The contacts I was talking about cleaning are more like points and actually get silver plating that you have to be careful cleaning . if someone's cleaned them too much you'll see the copper under the plating and it's time to replace . This is not because they won't work it's because the silver reduces the arcing compound left each time the machinist switched and allows the contacts to work over A longer period of time between maintenance
    All tools can be used as hammers

  14. #13
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    Default Contactors

    Quote Originally Posted by jgforsberg View Post
    post up what you got Vann.
    Okay. So the Preston saw came with a Crabtree contactor,

    aPresCSc.jpg Assuming this was installed at the same time as the isolating switch (a reasonable assumption, I feel) this would date from late 1960s to late 1980s.

    the Wadkin RTA lathe with it's original 1951 MEM contactor;

    ab1.jpg

    and the Wadkin PK saw with it's original 1945 Brookhurst contactor.

    Mem1c.jpg


    I've also obtained a second Crabtree contactor,

    Crab2.jpg

    and a Startex err... non-contactor.

    cStartex1.jpg

    Cheers, Vann.
    Last edited by Vann; 11th May 2016 at 08:06 PM. Reason: Some dates added.
    Gatherer of rusty planes tools...
    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club .

  15. #14
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    Default Contactor - Crabtree

    The Crabtree contactor appears to be a model B15

    CrabLit.jpg

    The pressed steel box had rust and other signs of age, so I wanted to smarten it up. The two pushbuttons were so 'weathered' it wasn't obvious which was "Off" and which was "On" (and for safety reasons I wanted to be able to find the "Off" in a hurry). I decided to refurbish the box of the second Crabtree contactor, and use parts from both (the second was missing a pushbutton).

    I bought test pots of red and green paint, and painted the pushbuttons, then applied a clear coat. I don't know how that will last.

    It's gone from this... to this.

    aPresCSc.jpg Crab11.jpg Yeah, I didn't quite get the colour right - but the difference isn't half as much as it seems in the photos.

    crab12.jpg crab13.jpg

    The plaque on the side says:
    O/L RATING: 5 - 10 A
    COIL VOLTS: 380/420
    FREQUENCY: 50

    Here are the two contactors, side by side.

    Crab5.jpg The LH unit is the spare, and in much worse condition. It's only rated 1-2 Amps.

    Crab6.jpg A closer view of the 'spare' with the L2-B1 contacts exposed.

    Crab7.jpg The 'good' unit showing that the contactor overload is set at 8.5 Amps.

    I wonder how the correct overload setting is determined? Set it low and see if it trips?

    Cheers, Vann.
    Last edited by Vann; 11th May 2016 at 04:08 PM. Reason: Update added.
    Gatherer of rusty planes tools...
    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club .

  16. #15
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    Default

    Vann i have the same mag switch as the PK and i can go through it this week end. I also have the lathe switch. What is the voltage in your shop and do you have 3 phase or single phase power.

    Here are a few videos i did on basic for those following along. Its main is VFDs but it may be helpful.





    All tools can be used as hammers

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