Thread: Robland XSD Jointer Thicknesser

Cool - where are you getting the head made?

Byrd in the US seems to be the go-to - SHELIX

There are also a mob in China who make them for probably cheaper. There was a guy here in Brisbane who had a ~20 inch surface planner (looked like it was about 80yrs old) and had a new head made up for it over in China for $5500. He processed recycled railway sleepers (Home - The Railway Sleeper Co.)

Originally Posted by Charlie_6ft

Cool - where are you getting the head made?

Byrd in the US seems to be the go-to - SHELIX

There are also a mob in China who make them for probably cheaper. There was a guy here in Brisbane who had a ~20 inch surface planner (looked like it was about 80yrs old) and had a new head made up for it over in China for $5500. He processed recycled railway sleepers (Home - The Railway Sleeper Co.)

Waiting on a quote from Woodcraft Supplies. They supply both Shelix and CTS. Hopefully for a bit less than $5,500 though. Cutterhead is only 310mm wide. Cheers, Zac

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Why are you buying a spiral head? You dont have to have a spiral head.
For 60 odd years, both my dad and I have used a normal, sharp, and well set up three knife straight edged cutterhead with no issues and perfect finish, on all types of timbers.We are working in a commercial situation, with up to 30 journeymen using the machinery at times. I struggle to see how the average hobbyist woodworker, with average use, would ever hope to recover the extra cost and setup of a spiral head, the benefits are just not justified. It costs me about 20$ to get my three 12” knives for the planer sharpened twice a year, sometimes three times. The cost of a spiral head and the inserts is way more, it would take you 75 years to justify the outlay. That money would be better spent on other gear in my opinion, a wide belt sander would be my first choice.

Originally Posted by riverbuilder

Why are you buying a spiral head? You dont have to have a spiral head.
For 60 odd years, both my dad and I have used a normal, sharp, and well set up three knife straight edged cutterhead with no issues and perfect finish, on all types of timbers.We are working in a commercial situation, with up to 30 journeymen using the machinery at times. I struggle to see how the average hobbyist woodworker, with average use, would ever hope to recover the extra cost and setup of a spiral head, the benefits are just not justified. It costs me about 20$ to get my three 12” knives for the planer sharpened twice a year, sometimes three times. The cost of a spiral head and the inserts is way more, it would take you 75 years to justify the outlay. That money would be better spent on other gear in my opinion, a wide belt sander would be my first choice.

Now you've given me pause because yours is an opinion I respect. I've never had a machine with I spiral head so I can't comment as to their superiority, but I've heard lots about how good they are and the quieter noise and cleaner cuts in figured wood etc etc. So naturally I've found myself wanting one. Plus I figured that I'm pulling the machine apart anyway to replace the bearings and belts (the bearing are really bad), so now is a good time to put in the spiral head. I guess it will come down to the price. Anything around a grand will be fine, much more than that I'll probably stick with the straight knives. I did a test cut with new knives in this machine and it was actually really good so it's good to know I can fall back on that. As to extra machines, space is limited but I'd like to move the wood storage outside and fit in a radial arm saw, but that's a question for another day.

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Originally Posted by riverbuilder

Why are you buying a spiral head? You dont have to have a spiral head. ......

Have you ever used a spiral head, RB?

They do cost perhaps $800-1,000 more than straight cutters, but they do give a slightly better finish, longer time between sharpenings, (usually) slightly lower maintenance costs, and significantly less tear out damage on convoluted grain - that complex highly figured grain patterns that we all love. [Agreed; a thickness sander is far better at eliminating this risk.]

However, the truly big advantage with spiral heads is noise - they are universally 10 - 12 decibells quieter than straight cutters. This difference is easily measureable. In my mind, that quietness alone justifies the cost of the spiral head. You can have a normal conversation while planing.

In this increasingly litigious society, this is a very compelling reason to install spiral heads in a commercial shop. Work safe rules have strict noise volume limits, and tribunal and court cases are increasingly going against the employer. If an employee develops hearing problems then it is quite likely that the employer will be found responsible. Could be rather expensive!

Originally Posted by riverbuilder

I struggle to see how the average hobbyist woodworker, with average use, would ever hope to recover the extra cost and setup of a spiral head, the benefits are just not justified.

What piece of equipment does the average hobbyist woodworker ever recover the cost on? I’ve personally spent thousands on stuff, and probably the only piece of equipment which might have a positive effect on my finances (over a very long period) is my dust extraction, which will hopefully save me some money in medical bills.

I’m not aware of any hobbies that don’t cost money at some level, and (in terms of equipment) ours can be expensive. Almost none of it can legitimately be called an investment.

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

Have you ever used a spiral head, RB?

They do cost perhaps $800-1,000 more than straight cutters, but they do give a slightly better finish, longer time between sharpenings, (usually) slightly lower maintenance costs, and significantly less tear out damage on convoluted grain - that complex highly figured grain patterns that we all love. [Agreed; a thickness sander is far better at eliminating this risk.]

However, the truly big advantage with spiral heads is noise - they are universally 10 - 12 decibells quieter than straight cutters. This difference is easily measureable. In my mind, that quietness alone justifies the cost of the spiral head. You can have a normal conversation while planing.

In this increasingly litigious society, this is a very compelling reason to install spiral heads in a commercial shop. Work safe rules have strict noise volume limits, and tribunal and court cases are increasingly going against the employer. If an employee develops hearing problems then it is quite likely that the employer will be found responsible. Could be rather expensive!

I’m well aware of the benefits of spiral heads, I’ve used and owned several. I currently own a Carbatec planer/thicknesser with spiral head, which we’ve used every day for the last 3 years. The reason I bought a spiral head machine is I knew it would be easily sold on when this project is completed. At my previous workshop I had a Weinig 4 sided planer with four spiral heads. At a previous place of employment, I ran Martin machines, all with spiral heads.
My point is, there’s no strict reasoning to say that just because everyone says you must have a spiral head planer, that you pull off a perfectly serviceable and useful cutterhead, and replace it with another that costs close to the initial value of the machine again. I agree they are quieter, and for some home hobbyists in garage use, this is a valid reason to consider. But in a commercial workshop, generally there are several machines running at once, so the noise produced by one cutterhead is negligible in the bigger picture. I’ve had audiologists come to our workshops with sound measuring equipment, and I ran each machine for them to analyse the sound and decibel levels, I’m well aware of the OH&S ramifications of industrial noise exposure, I have close to 60% total loss in one ear and 25% in the other. I’ve had no success in litigation at all.
Spiral heads are good, the big advantage that not many people realise is that they produce much smaller chips, which means that it’s easily extracted, away from the cut surface and the following cutting edges, which contributes a lot to the life between edge changeovers.

When you chip the knifes in a straight knife machine you just shift one blade sideways a bit and press on. A lot more mucking about with a spiral head.

Originally Posted by rustynail

When you chip the knifes in a straight knife machine you just shift one blade sideways a bit and press on. A lot more mucking about with a spiral head.

?????? Just rotate one blade.

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

?????? Just rotate one blade.

That only works for one chip. Multiple chips from foreign objects in the timber require each chipped blade to be rotated. I imagine the new cutters are going to be fractionally longer than their neighbours so a groove becomes evident until they wear down to even.
Straight blade only require one slight shift of one knife and the job goes on.
Don't get me wrong, Im not rubbishing spiral heads. They give an excellent finish with much reduced noise (a very important feature for the suburban based home handyman.) Would I swap out a straight knife head for a spiral for no other reason other than I can? No.

Bit of an update on the combo machine. It's in pieces. Nearly all the bearings need replacing, as well as some in the motor. I've also found a pretty close colour match - a colourbond hue called Deep Wilderness. More on this to come. Love the discussion on the spiral heads too, thanks to all involved. I've been quoted $1250 for the replacement if that adds to the debate.

Cheers,
Zac.


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Originally Posted by rustynail

...
Don't get me wrong, Im not rubbishing spiral heads. They give an excellent finish with much reduced noise (a very important feature for the suburban based home handyman.) Would I swap out a straight knife head for a spiral for no other reason other than I can? No.

Naturally, I, also "Would (not) swap out a straight knife head for a spiral for no other reason other than I can". I pretend that I am a little more rational than that.

But its a different matter on noise abatement. As I said before, spiral heads reduce noise by between 10 - 12 dB. This is a big reduction; 10 dB is literally a halving of the noise level. And that is a nice luxury in a home shop and getting closer to mandatory in a commercial shop.

Graham, I am sure you are. But there seems to be a lot of folk who think that a change out is almost mandatory. As RB said earlier, it is hard for the average handyman to justify the extra expense.

Freshly painted panels and tables. I have the motor apart to replace the bearings in there too. I bought some 150mm poly pipe to make a new dust port.

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