Thread: Wadkin EC Tenon Machine

Thats a whole lot of machine! You'll be punching out doors and windows in no time!

Nice one Pete.

5 heads deserves five thumbs up !

I bought the same thing in WA and had it shipped on a truck just like you . About 6 years ago I think . I still have to pinch myself to make sure I'm not dreaming for owning such a thing.
It is without a doubt an incredible machine .

You got the one with the lever lock up top that locks two front heads as one which is good . Not sure when that was introduced but you see plenty without that . Yours is EC 357 Mine is EC 378 . 21 EC machines later.

Your test no is for 57015 and mine 59225 so Mine is 2210 Wadkin Machines later . Yours 1957 mine 1958 .

These Numbers were provided By Mark Roberts and his website About

What sort of stuff do you make ?

You have some plans for it !
1 . The re wire is easy .

2. Possibly replace front heads . Glad you said Possibly . I have tossed the same idea and have the same heads as you .

One thing I learned only a week back through the FB Wadkin appreciation page is that You got to make sure new heads are from someone making them for a tenoner . Probably a Wadkin Tenoner too . It turns out the two front spindles on these machines don't run parallel . They run a degree or two off so the scribe blades are angled to reduce rubbing and produce a slight undercut of the shoulder. I tried to see it with a straight edge and think I could just see it ? And the heads are tapered to counter the angles so to produce a parallel tenon. Something just any old supplier of new heads has been known to miss I learned . There was a guy on FB with problems about this which is why his post was made.
Jack Forsberg from the Wadkin Temple Canada was talking about it . He put up pictures taken from a Dalton Wadkin EC catalogue .
Yeah it shows it and Im glad i didnt jump and buy new heads . The old ones are doing fine and I sent them to Jalor tools in Knoxfeild Melbourne for sharpening and re setting . They were way off with the setting when I got them . Ive not a clue how to re set them myself but have been re sharpening my blades on the machine a few times with good results .

Regarding Legal or Not . Anything is Legal here and those heads are not legal in UK . Same with scribe heads. So parts for them are seen all the time on UK Ebay . You let anyone get hurt on that machine that's not you , cause no one in Health & Safety here gives a hoot about you !! like Me or any other Machine owner Boss . And You like me are in more TROUBLE than ?? Were financially Doomed.
So there's plenty of staff Ive had that Id let watch and never go near to using it! And a few Id supervise when I knew they were good enough to understand and they wanted to learn how to use it . Smart Fellas. All my guys were smart enough to know not to think about touching it till the time was right .
I tought myself slowly and did get a cut reaching in one day when the machine was off . My hand was caught coming out on the top head blade . I dropped my guard thinking nothing can go wrong now with the machine off !

3. The new nuts you need . The guys at Jalor are well skilled to re make parts if you cant find them second hand . Thread sizes and pitch Id have to go look. I am sure things like this are not hardened but are produced from hard good quality steel . The Wadkin fit is remarkable . I recently hunted down a set of Wadkin Dove tail bolts from UK Ebay . 10 uk Pound each compared to $125 each made here at Jalor. I got 8 . Im setting up my scribe heads to do angled chair work with trad tenons with angled shoulers. Im also sticking with the old square heads that came with my machine and will be using the old style knives . There's enough smart guys around to point out the basics of how to use such things and keep it 100% safe .

4. Jalor Or Ebay UK

5 . New Serated backed knives for matching new heads are cheap and very good . Available from UK Ebay . I had considered them but sticking with my old ones and finding the 8 DT bolts was much cheaper.

See this . Look at the sizes option .

WADKIN Moulder Serrated Cutter Block -122 dia x 40 bore z4 -Various Lengths | eBay

And this . Out of stock now but the stuff to look for.
ONE HSS 635MM X 50MM X 8MM SERRATED CUTTER BLANK Inc VAT | eBay


6 . Good
7 . Good
8. Good

9 . Why ? Sounds like a good idea . But are you intending on having other users ?

10 . Great Practice on mine first though will you . LOL. Mine is still Green .

Great stuff . Wadkin Tragics is what were called by some .

Beutiful money makers these things . I get a lot of great standard tenons for table construction , chair work and doors for furniture done with mine . It needs good dust extraction though . Paint and polish would be nice too .

Heres an action shot .

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Rob

The saw collar . I thought there was one on uK ebay last week . Cant see it now . It was Wadkin but not sure if an EC part .


These Nuts are available .

WADKIN EKA & ECA Single End Tenoner Locknuts - GENUINE UK PARTS | eBay



And This off an EQ I think .
Not sure if its the right size or thread for your saw blade ?
Spindle Moulder Spindle Nut - 1 1/4” Wadkin | eBay


Rob

Hi Rob.

Good to see that I’m not the only lover of this machine. It really is a beauty. Looking at the test numbers we are almost related now.
I previously had a Dominion of about the same vintage. Also a great machine. I sold it a number of years ago as I needed space to grow the business in another direction. I soon regretted that decision. I’ve been looking for the Wadkin version ever since. Oh the joy when you find one!

I’ve be getting increasing enquires for special doors and windows lately and the EC just gives me back the capability that I had lost when I sold the Dominion. I don’t do lots of windows and doors but I like to be able to do whatever is asked of me by my clients.

Thanks for the info regarding the out of parallel spindles on the top and bottom tenon spindles. I certainly did not know that. I can see that that would make a massive difference when purchasing new heads. Maybe I’ll keep the heads that are on it. I feel that the newer style heads would not cut as well anyway? The massive clearance around the original blades makes for easy material removal. What’s your thoughts on that?
Whenever I sharpened the blades on the Dominion, I reset them back into the block by eye and feel up against a piece of preset timber that I’d put in place prior to taking the blades out. That way I knew where they needed to go back to. That may not be the best way but that’s just how I was shown so never really questioned if there was a better way.

Regarding the safety aspects, I just want to bring it up to new standards. My son will be using it so I would feel better if it was as safe as it could be. Saying that, I never found a tenon machine to be dangerous but like you said its for smart guys, not just anyone, so I won’t be letting anyone else use it.

It makes sense to me that the spindle nuts were not hardened. I would have thought that softer steel would ‘grab’ better. But I guess the steel needs to be tough enough to keep its shape over long periods of time and many tightenings and loosening. I probably should read more about that sort of thing. I sure ain’t no engineer. I have been reading though and it’s my understanding that the nuts are; 1” BSF Flange nuts 12 TPI. I’ve been looking but they seem to be very rare. It looks like I will leaning on a mate who has the ability to make them. Can you confirm whether all 5 nuts are the same. Obviously there are left and right hand threads.I ask because I can’t get the tenon nuts off. I don’t have a socket that fits the nut and is also thin enough to fit in the nuts recess space. I tried to borrow from a few neighbouring factories but none fit. Did your machine come with a set of spanners. I’ve yet to go to Sydney Tools to see what I can get.
I had the same thoughts on the serrated blades and blocks for the top and bottom scribers. I’ll let you know when I’ve had a good look.

I think I may be a ‘Wadkin Tragic’ too. I don’t think I can hide now that I have two.

Thanks for your comments, help, info and interest. It is much appreciated.

Regards

Pete.

Hi Pete. Nice machine. Thank-you for posting a picture of the Wadkin tag - I'll add it to the database over on CWW.

Originally Posted by Auscab

...Yours is EC 357 Mine is EC 378 . 21 EC machines later.

Your test no is for 57015 and mine 59225 so Mine is 2210 Wadkin Machines later . Yours 1957 mine 1958...

Auscab, I don't have a pikkie of your tag. Can I have one please?

Originally Posted by Pittwater Pete

...the nuts are 1” BSF (British Standard Fine) 14 TPI (thread per inch) and are flange nuts...

Originally Posted by Pittwater Pete

...it’s my understanding that the nuts are; 1” BSF Flange nuts 12 TPI...

Hmm, I believe 1" BSF is 10tpi.

Originally Posted by Pittwater Pete

...Oh yeah, I’ll also need a new outer cut off saw collar washer ( I can’t remember it’s proper manner)....

I wonder if the collar off a Wadkin CK radial arm saw would be the same (it's a 1" spindle too). If so, I have a spare. What's the diameter of the flange?

Cheers, Vann.

Hi Pete.

Ive heard good reports of new heads. Guys really like the way they cut . All I had heard was good and that Whitehill UK is the place to buy them. The first Bad experience I read of was that FB report. The guy was getting tapered tenons ! I don't know where those heads came from . They were on the machine when he got it and had nothing to do with Whitehill .
The cost of two new heads though , then blades , then shipping !!

Main Tenon Heads

The difference with material removal from old to new ? I guess it may become noticeable if you were trying to push the feed rate right up which is asking for trouble . I take it pretty slowly mostly especially on the exit because I'm to lazy to fitt the extra piece of wood to most jobs that prevent chip out at the end of the pass. Slow exit does fine doesn't it ? Think Ive only fitted one once.

Setting blades against a block of wood sounds good . I just read the Wadkin info on that and they say a special stand was used with wood blocks to do the same thing . Got me thinking a pre cut tenon kept for re setting the blades could be used to check that, clamped back into the machine ?
And the heads adjusted down to meet it .
But how would a regrind of blades before sharpening if needed be kept on track? Just follow the old curve by eye or scribe a line to follow somehow ? It might be fine doing that a few times which could work out to be 10 years of use .But eventually they may need to be sent off ?
Ive considered a second set of old heads from UK to have ready to go when needed .


IMG_6312a.jpg
That is the page off the net regarding setting blades I just saw and the tapered heads .

With the safety thing and guards . There is plenty of these that show up on UK ebay and I have saved some pics . More for looking at dust hoods . There have been some Ive seen while searching that have guarding that makes it practically impossible to make a mistake . Its like fitting fencing . If I was running a workshop busy enough that I needed the machine running a lot and staff had to be on that machine and not me Id have that thing so fenced up Id get a kick out of hearing them winging about it .

Its just me now mostly and sometimes I am working with My son too but the Tenoner and the careful set up required for each job means I set up and sometimes give him a go with me watching. Once or twice so far I think .
The Spindle Moulder and the copy lathe which is an old beautiful Aussie dangerous machine , same thing .

Now those nuts. You saw the the link I put up is for the nuts off the scribe heads ? works out $180 ea + post roughly . Your mate sounds like a good idea .
They are 1" for the EC machine , but 1"BSF 12tpi I don't think is right or the same as mine .
Now I'm not always right talking threads and pitches but i think Ive got it right . My scribe head nut that is off atm is 1", the male thread is 25.34mm just under the 25.4mm = 1" but that could be my measuring .
The thread is 14G and says 7/16" after that on the Whitworth thread gauge . Whats the 7/16" mean again ? I forget . I think it may mean that 14 G is normally used on a 7/16" stock ? Im pretty sure its 14 tpi though when it says 14 G, I didn't check that .
IMG_6309a.jpg IMG_6310a.jpg
The main head nuts . I can try and check asap . Tomorrow I'm busy till the end of day so maybe then.
I have a spanner for them that is a socket that has a bent bar welded on its end . I think you'd have to search ebay for a Whitworth loose socket to make one . That shouldn't be to hard to find . Ill try and see what size it is as well . I got a feeling their different than the scribe heads though.

Untitled2 (2).jpg You can see my spanner sitting on the bed near the heads . That was the only spanner like thing I got with it .


The saw blade nut and collar thing is this .

IMG_6308a.jpg. Ill have a closer look at size.


No probs with the help . I do get into it.


Rob

Hi Vann .

You'll have this thread thing sorted

But Pete only mentioned 14 tpi didn't he ?

And I'm just talking scribe heads atm .

14 G 7/16 is BSW isnt it ? or is that BSF ?? My Gauge just says Whitworth unless its got more info on the other side ?

My Tag

WADKIN-SINGLE-END-TENONER_949609.l (2).jpg

Rob

Originally Posted by auscab

...But Pete only mentioned 14 tpi didn't he ?

And I'm just talking scribe heads atm...

Pete said 14 TPI in the first post, but 12 TPI in his second post. I'm not famaliar with the EC - and he may have been talking about different heads - but I suspect it's just a typo and want to be sure.

Originally Posted by auscab

...14 G 7/16 is BSW isnt it ? or is that BSF ?? My Gauge just says Whitworth unless its got more info on the other side ?

I'm not sure what the "G" refers to but 7/16" BSW is 14 tpi - and 5/8" BSF is also 14 tpi. As we appear to be talking about 1" spindles, Wadkin must have used a custom (non-standard) thread on these spindles and nuts. That's a good thing - it means they didn't just settle for a "near enough" thread, but put in some thought and selected a pitch that would do the job well (it just makes it a PITA getting replacements all these years later ).

I looked at a whole bunch of other threads (cycle, conduit, admiralty, brass, copper, BA) but I couldn't find any that are 1" diameter and 14 tpi.

So all you can say is it's a 1", 14 tpi, Whitworth form (i.e. 55 degrees) thread (assuming it IS 14 tpi, not 12 tpi) and then any decent turner can machine that for you. Of course you also need to mention LH and RH as required. Most turners would like to have the spindle so they can check the fit.

Thanks for the tag photo. I'll add it next update.

Cheers, Vann.

Lovely!

I used to use one o' those gals in another life, except...

...where that has a solid front rail under the carriage, the girl I used had a "parallel-o-gram" type pivoting arm. Which was a right PITA at times. A different model of Wadkin or am I misremembering the brand?

I checked last night .
All 5 threads on My EC are 1" and 14G .
That's Top front spindle with head off.

IMG_6317a.jpg

My made up socket for removal is a Kingchrome 38mm . So no hunting for Whitworth needed .
Which may be good because sorting if its a fit by how someone may have listed its Whitworth size looks hard .


.IMG_6314a.jpg IMG_6315a.jpg

And this . The Flange ? 100mm diameter and by sight using tape 15mm thick.

IMG_6322a.jpg

Rob

Originally Posted by auscab

...And this . The Flange ?
100mm diameter and by sight using tape 15mm thick.

IMG_6322a.jpg

Rob

Bummer, the CK flange is 6" (152mm) diameter (and also ~15mm thick) - so no good.

CK1.jpg

Cheers, Vann.

Hi Vann

Thanks for adding the tag to the CWW database.

Regarding the nuts; I did say 14TPI in the first post then changed to 12 TPI by mistake. It seems to be 14TPI as seen on the drawings - Nut labelled N (Downloaded from the Daltons site). Other investigations came up with 1” BSF being 10TPI as you have thought. I’m thinking it’s a Wadkin special or BFS (British Fine Special). Yes it is a thing according to some of the fastener sites I’ve visited in my search.





I measured the saw collar and it’s a tad over 100mm.









Hi Rob

I think I might splurge and order the Whitehall tenon cutter blocks. I’ll be getting the scriber blocks anyway so in for a penny…. I don’t push the timber through hard either. There’s no point. If you have to push too hard something is wrong. Saying that, I used mostly Western Red Cedar. On the odd occasion we’d put hardwood through it, a bit more force was required. Controlled force though. You can hear when it’s the right feed speed. I always had a spoil block behind the tenon to stop breakout but as you say, there’s no much provided the blades are sharp.

I think in all the years I used the Dominion machine (20 or so years) we never reground the blades. We would tickle them up with a stone occasionally. Maybe I just don’t remember. If we did, it would have been a gentle grind by eye. A problem that will be a thing of the past when I get the new heads.

I’ve seen those safety guards that you refer to. I’ll eventually try and make or buy something like that.

My mate has found one nut so far. How good Is he. I think he has a socket that fits too.

He’s taken the nut away to find others.

What cut off saw blade do you use.
I think I have one from my old machine. It’s a 148 tooth.




Sorry, gotta go, got to cancel a birthday, Christmas and a holiday all because of the new COVID outbreak here on the Northern Beaches. What a basket case!

Be well friends.

Pete.

I think I did have a similar blade to yours on my last head. I swapped it with TCT later one . And the original must be hanging on my wall .
I gave it a try and left it . I have not had a run of tenons where I needed to use the cut off yet .
Glad its there though .

The new heads your getting will be nice . Ease of blade change and keeping them sharp will be good and the safety aspect will mean it may take small chunks in stead of eating an arm off ??

Here is some EC pictures I saved from UK eBay a while back with pretty decent looking new heads, Dust extraction and Guarding .

I looked through My saved pictures and this was the most impressive I think . The mesh fences Ive seen look easier to construct though . You can look see them as well of course which may be better .

Rob

Thanks Rob, nice pics.
I sure have some work to do to get to that stage. I too was thinking a caged guard. I like to see what’s going on. Maybe a cage and then perspex or acrylic?
Regards
Pete.