Thread: Wadkin LP Boring and Recessing Machine.

Vann I have seen my version of the LP on a pamphlet dated 1925

Looking forward to seeing your LP up and running and seeing what you think of it when your milling away with it . You know how much I love what the LQ can do. My LQ only has two speeds, changed with the belt. Slightly later and they came with the speed control switch and the two belt speeds . Pretty sure that's how it worked . Rob

Originally Posted by auscab

...My LQ only has two speeds, changed with the belt. Slightly later and they came with the speed control switch and the two belt speeds . Pretty sure that's how it worked.

Thanks, I wondered how they did the other two speeds. I thought maybe a stepped pulley at the motor end too .

Originally Posted by Vann

...I’ve only found info on three other LP recessors. One belongs to Melbourne Matty; one to Wallace1973...

Here's a thread Wallace started on his Wadkin LPD Unfortunately all the photos have been photobucketted .

Matty did a thread on his, on the Canadian forum: https://forum.canadianwoodworking.co...6028-wadkin-lp But once again Photobucket have had their wicked way . Towards the end are some cattledog cuts, posted by auscab. Matty was very kind and sent me more and better copies for this thread.

CatLP138.jpg CatLP139.jpg CatLP140.jpg

CatLP141.jpg CatLP142.jpg CatLP143.jpg CatLP144.jpg

Cheers, Vann.

As mentioned in the 1st post, the original table is 28” x 15” with, 22” of longitudinal movement, 9” of transverse movement, and 6½“ of vertical movement.

aLPt1.jpg Original table.

aLPt2.jpg Modified table.

There seem to be a few changes. In addition to the change from round rod to rectangular bar along the front of the table, there's also an eccentric handle (rotation lock?), and a ball lever handle appears underneath. And of course the table size has increased to 30” x 16” with, 25” of longitudinal movement, 9” of transverse movement, and 7“ of vertical movement.

If I understand this correctly: for cutting stair housings (a claimed feature of this machine) on the original table, the stair string is mounted at 45° to the line of the machine, and then must be rotated 90° on top of the table to cut the riser.

aLPt4.jpg Original table.

On the modified table, the string is clamped just once, and the whole table is rotated 90° back and forth for each cut.

aLPt4a.jpg Modified table.

The table has numerous holes tapped ½" BSW into the top surface, to mount clamps (one style of clamp is show in the above cuts). The rod/bar across the front has stops to limit table longitudinal movement - there is a similar rod/bar along the left-hand side under the table, to limit transverse movement when desired.

It looks like I have the modified table on mine (with rotation ) but I won't know for sure until I see it next month.

aLPt3.jpg

Cheers, Vann.

I believe the LP was originally designed as a line-belt driven machine. For this it has fast and loose pulleys, with the fast pulley coupled to a larger pulley with drives the separate 1¾" flat-belt which drives the spindle, via the two idler pulleys (the latter flat-belt is shown in the illustration below).

aLP-10.jpg

The fast and loose pulleys are 6" diameter and 2¼" wide - driven at 900 r.p.m. Maximum 2 horsepower required. The striking gear for the fast and loose pulleys is operated from the front, via a shaft on the left-hand side of the machine.

The concept of an electrically driven model was proposed with a motor replacing the fast and loose pulleys. This concept apparently came to fruition, as it is illustrated in Matty's cattledog.

aLP-3.jpg aLP-12.jpg

The pulley on the motor is 10" diameter and 2¼" wide, and the 2 hp motor turns at 950 r.p.m.

Later still the motor is moved to the top of the machine, necessitating a number of minor changes to the main frame casting.

aLP-13.jpg

I believe this 2 hp motor runs at 2800 r.p.m.

It would appear that my machine (despite having a motor at the top) was originally flat-belt driven, as at least one of the lugs to hold the striking gear shifter are still present.

aLP-14.jpg

The later LQ recessor has it's motor mounted at the top in all examples I've seen illustrated to date. It too comes standard with a 2 hp motor, although 3 hp and 4 hp options were available for heavy or continuous duties.

Cheers, Vann.

Originally Posted by Vann

The LQ is a similar but heavier version of the LP, weighing in at 14 ½ cwt (1525lb, nearly ¾ ton) vrs 7/9¼ cwt for the LP. The LQ also has four spindle speeds (2000, 3000, 4000 & 6000rpm) vrs two spindle speeds on the LP (2000 & 4000rpm).

On the LP, speed adjustment is made at the stepped pulley at the top of the spindle.

I believe the slow spindle speeds probably made these recesssors obsolete – overtaken by the much faster overhead routers – such as the LS.

Hi Vann .
I dont want to sound like a smart A here . I think you will like this though. You and I have had a few good chats via emails about these machines and discussed the points above and I remember not getting to the bottom of this . Or Me not being satisfied with myself knowing I had not fully conveyed what I was trying to explain . And when I read your comments above I thought about it for a long time .

Today I realized I think I have a good way of demonstrating the difference between the LS type over head routers and the LP / LQ over head Borers and recessors. And the speed difference which is needed for the two different machine types. I cant think of a reson for the LP / LQ becoming obsolete. but I don't think it was because of the faster speeds of the over head routers. Maybe they made enough of them that every one who needed one had one ?

Another thing I think is Wadkin could have chose a better name for these machines . Over head borer and reccesor is a bit misleading. I think of it more as a milling machine for wood . Some people I have spoken to People think its for mainly drilling holes?? No its not just for that .

My LQ came from a Talented pattern maker . He went through how he used it for his work and gave me a run down on how to make patterns for the PK twin miters, all very interesting . And he gave me all the tooling that came with the machine when he got it . So this is the tooling that he and the previous Pattern maker he got the machine off used.

I have router bits that run in my inverted router table . I have a large sized Makita in there atm and these bits are as large as I dare go . The largest on the right at 50mm Broke the shaft on one of My Makita's cutting tenons . Makita had changed the shaft design from earlier models and this didn't help . But at 50mm doing somewhere between 18 and 22000 revs on the new design ,and possibly the old design? 50mm is pushing it to far . I had to drop back to 35 mm cutters, the next cutter on the left for the tenon cutting. The break was a hair line crack that developed from the end of the shaft coming back in . The shaft was machined with a cone to take the Colet. As soon as the crack happened Big bad vibrations told me to turn off the router .

I know that larger matched kitchen door making router bit sets are available. Male and female. And I know that slower routers are needed to run these cutters.

So Wadkin over head routers do 18 to 22000 roughly , and are used for cutting and shaping in a way that small bits at high speed trim out shapes or recesses . They don't use large bits and as far as I know , and 1/2 inch collet is standard I think ?

But the pattern mills Wadkin make and the LP and LQ mills have larger morse tapers for fitting cutters and chucks . The reason for 2000 to 4000 rpm is for taking bigger cutters that you wouldn't dare put in an over head router.
There was actually an incident here in Melbourne where someone was killed putting a 140mm diameter cutter in an over head router , and it flew apart.

So Back to my pictures . The 50mm 1/2 shank is to big for my Makita . A Wadkin Over head would be fine with it Id bet . But I still think is a bit big for those speeds. To the right of the 50mm is what came with the LQ . The Aluminium cutter with three bits is a fly cutter , a light pass leveling piece. The others are Forstner bits for boring . And beveling bits . Big heavy bits . The box full is all of them . I haven't had a need to try any yet . Ive been doing fine with my router bits . I just threw on the door panel pictures as well which were done with router bits.

Rob

Originally Posted by auscab

Hi Vann .
I dont want to sound like a smart A here...

Not at all. I was laying in bed last night, after submitting my last post, thinking: here I go again, rambling on in tedious detail about another machine. I hope people don't think I'm a pompous know-it-all (because I don't know it all, at all).

I simply document what I see (and jump to a few conclusions I shouldn't) because those who know more than I, haven't got around to it yet...

I want people to look at what I write and pick up detail I've missed, and call me on conclusions I've jumped to that might be wrong. And add their own observations and knowledge.

Originally Posted by auscab

...Another thing I think is Wadkin could have chose a better name for these machines . Over head borer and reccesor is a bit misleading. I think of it more as a milling machine for wood . Some people I have spoken to People think its for mainly drilling holes??...

Yeah, that's how I see it - the wood equivalent of a metal milling machine (the term "wood mill" has so many other connotations). The guy I bought mine off, sold it as a drill press. When I asked about any cutters for milling he said they'd only ever used it as a drill, and the bloke they bought it off six years ago sold it to them as a drill press.

I've made some initial inquiries into getting a VFD for this machine. Due to the scarcity of Wadkin cutters, I'm intending to get a few ½" shank router bits of larger diameters, and then use the VFD to run them at suitable speeds. For smaller bits I'd probably want to run the machine considerably faster than 4000 r.p.m. and maybe faster than 6000rpm. I don't know what r.p.m. the spindle bearings are rated for (I still have a lot of research to do...).

As for breaking router bits in a router . A friend of mine is a very good carpenter - but taught on portable machines (he wouldn't know a Wadkin from a Wilson or a White, Wolfenden or Whitney). He uses a Makita 3612C variable speed router (must be 15-20 years old by now) and pulls the speed right down for larger bits, for exactly that reason.
As for me - I use a Makita 3620 , which most people think of as a ¼" router, however, after breaking a 10mm bit some years ago, I investigated other possibilities. I knew it could take ⅜" shanks. Linbide used to make ⅜" shank bits (and still have very limited range in stock). They also make 8mm shank bits. I've acquired 8mm and ⅜" collets, and now run these larger shank bits wherever I can. I don't yet own any ½" shank router bits.

Cheers, Vann.

Looking at the bottom end of the main frame, there are two changes obvious to me. The first is the addition of a strengthening flange around the opening for the table "piston". The second is the addition of a ball lever handle on the left-hand side.

aLP-15.jpg aLP-16.jpg

Mine appears to have neither change (1st photo below), while Matty's has both (2nd photo below).

aLP-17.jpg aLP-18.jpg Left-hand side, front.

The other changes at the bottom end are the eventual elimination of the lugs for the striking gear and flat belt pulleys.

aLP-19.jpg Right-hand side, rear. "Look ma, no lugs".

Cheers, Vann.

I think the LQ is a poor mans pattern miller, in the brochure it says it can be used for recessing, stair housing, boring, circular recessing and large diameter boring, half lapping, overhead spindle moulder and pattern making.
The tooling used ranges from morse pattern twist bits to slotted collars, French spindles, square cutterblocks, circular saws and 3" core box cutters.
I got rid of a few machines to make way for my LP.

Looking further at the main casting, the radius between the horizontal and vertical sections (at the rear of the table) increases.

aLP-27.jpg aLP-24.jpg

aLP-26.jpg As seen on wallace1973's LPD.


At the top end, rear, the lug which holds the two idler pulleys has a vertical hole on both the flat-belt driven models, and the early motor driven models

aLP-21.jpg aLP-22.jpg As seen here on Matty's LP.

While the last version has a horizontal hole for the motor support shaft. There's also a handwheel added, to adjust the tension on the drive belt - and a ball lever handle, presumably to lock the motor support shaft.

aLP-23.jpg

Cheers, Vann.

Originally Posted by Vann

...I haven’t taken delivery yet (it’s in storage), but I hope to see it in the flesh in January.

When I went for shipping quotes, shortly after I bought the LP in early October last year, they all came in about three times what I was expecting - and I was scared it would get damaged in transit. It's top heavy, has the motor sticking out at the back, and handwheels sticking well out the front. So I got it delivered to my BIL and it's been in storage in a glasshouse. I drove the 750 or so kilometres to Auckland on New Years Eve (last Sunday) to visit family, and to check out the LP.

I attempted to remove anything that might get damaged by a shipper. I removed the table, and the traverse mechanism, the belt guard and the motor, and the table raise/lower handwheel. The foot pedal wouldn't budge, and the spindle got stuck part way out - so stayed with the machine.

I think the parts I had off are more than a full load for my little Toyota Corolla.

It went from this...

aLP1.jpg

...to this.

aLP2.jpg

It now has a smaller footprint, so I'll try for revised shipping quotes (and know that the most easily broken items are safe at home).

The motor was the trickiest bit to remove (it's flamin heavy), but I managed without breaking anything.

aLP4.jpg Hanging on by the last bolt .

Yesterday drove back with the motor, table & traverse mechanism, handwheels etc. They're now mostly in the rathole. I think SWMBO is getting the idea that I've bought something (I haven't confessed yet).

Cheers, Vann.

On the subject of being caught out by the wife, mine caught me googling the mileage for a potential new machine. A lovely 1920's bandsaw, I think it was a DN

Originally Posted by wallace1973

On the subject of being caught out by the wife, mine caught me googling the mileage for a potential new machine. A lovely 1920's bandsaw, I think it was a DN

I saw that one. I thought it was a DH at first glance - but it's DN 267.

DN 267 UK.jpg

Cheers, Vann.

The motor that is on the machine is a F. & A. Parkinson Ltd. 2hp motor.

aLP7b.jpg aLP8.jpg

aLP5a.jpg aLP9.jpg aLP6.jpg

It's not an OEM installation, as it run at 940 rpm. LPs with the motor mounted high like mine had a faster reving motor (2800 rpm I believe) with a much smaller and taller pulley.

aLP14.jpg aLP10.jpg

However, it is professionally done.

aLP13.jpg Just look at those massive knurled knobs for adjusting the belt tension.

So initially I thought it has been converted from flat-belt drive to electric drive at some time during it's 90 - 95 years.

Originally Posted by Vann

...I simply document what I see (and jump to a few conclusions I shouldn't)...

However, on reflection, I believe I have jumped to the wrong conclusion.

F. & A. Parkinson Ltd. only existed from 1913 to 1927. Before that they were just F. Parkinson & Co., and they became Crompton Parkinson in 1927. So if this motor is a retro-installation, it was fitted very early in the life of a machine made ~1922 - 1925.

Of note is that the motor is 940 rpm and the narrow pulley is 10" diameter.

aLP15.jpg
aLP11.jpg

I now think this is a very early electric powered machine, and that the original motor has been re-positioned at some point in it's life - either for convenience, or to meet H&S requirements.

Although the lugs for a belt shifter are present, the shifter was probably never fitted.

aLP12.jpg

When the machine arrives I'll check the holes in the lugs for wear.

Long term, I'd like to return the motor to floor level .

Cheers, Vann.