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  1. #1
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    Default Old Wadkin Mortiser question

    Hi all,

    This may be a long shot, but I thought I would ask the question. I'm getting my old mortiser working, not a full restoration at the moment, just operational.

    My question relates to the spring return on the chain part. Located in photo's 2 and 3 is a wound spring or 2 that helps the chain to retract. My problem is that the spring no longer has the strength to lift the chain part. I am wondering if this may have the ability to be adjusted/ re-tightened?

    I am hesitant to undo the bolts just in case parts fly everywhere and I'm unable to get it back together. (Bad experiences as a kid pulling stuff apart). I have considered putting a pulley and a weight inside the casing similar to the way the chisel works, but would prefer to leave it as original as possible.

    Cheers,

    Andrew.
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  3. #2
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    Nov 2011
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    Newcastle NSW
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    Andrew,

    That "Wadkin ME" is a nice machine. I have a catalogue with the ME in it, but it doesn't describe the spring mechanism. It would be in the user manual, but that could be a hard find. Looking at the later MF manual, it describes adjusting the tension of the spring balance:







    I suspect that this is the same setup in your ME. Basically if you look at your second image, the two bolts are "H" (from the diagram above), the right side is for the chisel, and the left is for the chain. The bolt in the middle in your 3rd image, is "G" in the diagram above, and the square bolt is the pivot for the "pawl".

    Quote Originally Posted by ab1 View Post
    I have considered putting a pulley and a weight inside the casing similar to the way the chisel works
    I believe the way it works is the chain and chisel work off one counter weight. The weight creates the main counterbalance, and the mechanism you are looking at enables some additional counterbalance so the chisel and chain can be tweeked just right.

    I don't have any first hand experience, I have a DMV, but this may help explain the mechanism. My suggestion though is give others a chance to chime in before doing anything. And before doing anything, make sure you raise then lock the chain assembly from moving before making any adjustments, and when you release the chain make sure you support it from suddenly falling

    cheers,

    camo

  4. #3
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    Default

    PM Jack Fosberg, he is the man with Wadkin. He started a thread here https://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...ghlight=wadkin
    CHRIS

  5. #4
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    Default

    Hi Camo,

    Thanks for the reply and the great info.

    I was thinking something similar, but didn't consider there would be a ratchet. That would make things much easier.

    I was will try and loosen H bolt and then gently rotate G to tighten the spring.

    There appears to be 2 springs in the top section in photos 2 and 3. They both do the chain. There is no counter weight for the chain.

    The chisel has no spring return, only a weight (maybe 50kg - it's bloody heavy). When I first got the machine, the chisel was very heavy to return back up. I started to wonder how strong people who used to operate this machine must have been. I then noticed the weight had been re-attached on the wrong side in the back and was working against the return.

    As this machine works on a double clutch system, and not individual motors, I'm thinking the weight of the chain and the chisel mechanisms would be lighter.

    Hey Chris, I will PM Jack. The more information I can gather, the better. Thanks for the suggestion.

    Another question, the machine needed some freeing up and removal of surface rust, nothing major. I cleaned it up so parts moved freely and lubricated them with silverglide and that was good. The problem is, I find silverglide goes sticky after a very short time and impedes the ease of operation. My question is, what is the best stuff to use to lubricate machines?

    I managed to pickup a pile of old chains and chisels to add to my slowly growing collection. Someone suggested I try Advanced timber tools in Queensland for any chains. I am looking for a 5/8 chain. Does anyone have any other suggestions of where I could get chains from. A second price to compare is always nice.



    Many thanks,

    Andrew.
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  6. #5
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    Hey Andrew,

    Something sounds strange to me, I still feel it's more likely that the weight is the main counterbalance for both, and that mechanism provides additional individually adjustable counterbalance for the chain and chisel assembly. I suspect someone was in your predicament previously, and using just the chisel side or perhaps in an attempt to get one side working for sale, tried to bypass the mechanism and hook up the counterweight direct to the chisel assembly.

    I'm hoping someone chimes in who has an MF, Rob?

    Cheers,

    Camo

  7. #6
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    Hey Camo,

    I’ve had a good look in the back and taken a few photos. It looks like the spring is for the chain and weight for the chisel.

    From the back the chisel is on the left and the chain on the right.

    Photo 1 shows attachment onto the chain headstock from inside the machine and photo 2 and 3 from the outside. Photo 4 shows the inside of what is photo 2 and 3 that I posted originally. There is clearly 1 chain.

    Photo 5, 6 and 7 show the counter weight and the attachment to the rack and pinion on the chisel. This is directly onto the shaft attached to the chisel operating lever. The chain that attached the weight was broken and poorly fixed. I have added a steel cable for the mean time until a full restoration.

    The last photo shows the clutch for the chisel. The vertical steel bar is what is depressed by the chisel headstock to operate the clutch.

    If anyone else in Melbourne has 1 of these machines, it would be great to be able to have a look at it.

    I’m thinking tomorrow I’ll have a go at adjusting the spring.

    Andrew.
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  8. #7
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    Andrew,

    Hmmm...It's hard to argue with those photo's, I'm very curious now to see the inside of a MF and see if they are using 1 weight.

    Based on that, I would recommend taking a step back and question the other part to my theory, do these bolts correlate to what the MF has?

    You definately want to proceed with caution if it's being counterbalanced purely by a spring mechanism. Before playing around, it might help to determine if the mechanism is under any tension at the moment. If you raise the chain assembly does the counterbalance chain go slack? If not, if you pull on the chain, how much force does it take to pull out the chain? Does it pull out and retract smoothly?

    This might help you to determine how much tension is on that mechanism, and if it has just come out of adjustment, or if something is broken.

    cheers,

    camo

  9. #8
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Sth Gippsland Vic
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    Andrew have you seen these on ebay

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HEAVY-DUT...item43e055208e

    Good price !! I was thinking of trying one out .

    Yeah I have the MF . I haven't had to adjust the tension though .
    Is there something you want me to check out on my one ?

    Ive been lubing my one down with inox. Oil for the chain and chisel though .

    Rob

  10. #9
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    The inox was mainly for the exposed non painted steel parts . All those oil points with the hole for a oil can got oil . I just used up some motor oil I had sitting around , since getting a metal lathe , a Hercus , I am buying the oil recomended for it . its detergent free . Motor oils have detergent I think . And that's not the best for lathes for some reason ? So I will probably be using that from now. I will have to go look to see what it's called . when I went to the oil shop the oil guy said all the engineers use it on there lathes .

    Rob

  11. #10
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    Here you go , I just went to the Hercus section and this post was up near the top .

    The 68 Grade Hydraulic oil was what I got , the theory on why engine oil is no good is there as well.


    https://www.woodworkforums.com/f189/hercus-oil-192125

    Rob

  12. #11
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    Default

    Now this post is just so my post count goes from 999 to 1000.


    Weeeee

    Rob

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by auscab View Post
    Now this post is just so my post count goes from 999 to 1000.


    Weeeee

    Rob
    Congratulations.

  14. #13
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    Default

    Hi Rob,

    Thanks for the info on the oil. I gave it a good spray with inox tonight. Plenty of rust came out and it started to free up. Lots more will be needed. I also checked out the mortise chains. I think they look good, however, I keen to get just a 5/8 chain.

    I figured out how the spring works for the chain retraction and the also the problem.

    The bolt at the front is loosened, close to being removed. Then the large nut attached to the round side plate is rotated. This winds or un-winds the spring, creating more or less tension. The bolt on the side with the square nut fixes one end of the spring to the side plate. The bolt with the washer on the side holds the round side plate (and therefore the spring) to the machine.

    It's a good setup as there is plenty of adjustment to get the tension just right and easy to service.

    The left hand one is good. I attempted to tension the right hand one. It did not change in pressure and I heard a slight clicking noise. I bit the bullet and pulled the round side plate off and discovered the spring has broken at some stage.

    I think I will re-bend the center part of the spring and try and use it being a tad smaller. I really do not want to try and bend some new spring steel into the correct shape, unless I have to.
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  15. #14
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    That bit on the left , is that what broke off ?

    You wont be able to bend the spring steel ,You could try but I don't think it will work. Once a spring breaks a whole new one would have to be made . Do you know how springs are made ? Ive done a few but nothing as long as that . Heating just the end for a bend affects the temper of the rest near the bend.

    It would be possible to bend an end on your old one but that would mean heating the the end up red hot and bending , then heating the whole thing red hot , quenching , so its now hardened , then re heating to an exact temp and quenching again , it's now tempered at a spring temper. such a job would be done in some kind of furnace . It could be done over a fire bricked in for a fun try but would be 50/50 if it worked or not . some of the springs Ive made have been very much trial and error . eg the first set broke so the second set were quenched at lower temps and they have been going well for years.

    There are spring makers around , one in Oakleigh , I don't know if hes still there or not ?

    Rob

  16. #15
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    I second what Rob said. I had a similar situation in the past, and managed to bend the end of the spring, shortly after it broke, again at the bend. Reading up on it, I found that bending it cold, work hardened the area even more making it susceptible to snapping at this point. Heating just the end, apparently creates a weak point at the point where the unheated and heated areas meet, and it is likely to break there.

    I ended up modifying the way the spring was held, from needing a hook, to being clamped at the end (this may not be practice in this situation, as it looks like it creates a tight coil).

    With all that said, there probably isn't much for you to loose in trying.

    Cheers,

    Camo

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