Thread: Sutton and P&N

Originally Posted by Itms

I am looking at new general purpose drill bits. Is there a difference between them as owned by same company?
Any other suggestions

Short answer - dunno!

Very few trades persons / machinists and virtually no hobbyists have the means to empirically test tool quality, so we rely upon "real world testing" which is really a gut feel about how well a tool performs. It's definitely getting more difficult to believe the wording about quality, place of manufacture in brochures and advertising and on packaging as advertising "spin doctors" like to create an impression that may not reflect reality.

There was a discussion about Sutton, place of manufacture etc on this thread. Carbitool/Sutton

I just purchased some Sutton masonry drill bits (standard not SDS) - packaging says "Made in France."

In my experience the Viper bits are very good, for what I do, the P&N standard countersinks - weelll - no better than the other competitors as they are also Chinese made.

Sutton Viper are very good for the price. Used to be made in NZ until the factory burned down. They are rebuilding the factory. Not sure where the Vipers are being made now. P&N are not good in my experience.

Project Farm just tested drill bits (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p94UbNphysY).

While the brands might be different it does show a (somewhat) objective way of testing drill bits. I say somewhat in they are tested on a farm not in a lab with certified instruments.

For what it's worth I use P&N drill but I am just a hobbyist drilling timber and they work well.

P&N apparently are made in Australia according to their website. Suttons they used to say made in Australia or NZ on the packet but now omits the origin.
I haven't used P&N in years, their bits looks like are mostly m35 colbalt.

Originally Posted by Itms

P&N apparently are made in Australia according to their website.

I don't see that on their website.

About Us - P&N Tools.

I recently bought some bits for their countersink thingo, made in Taiwan. So at least some P&N bits are made in Taiwan.

Originally Posted by Itms

About Us - P&N Tools.

Yes, I saw that. But I don't see how you conclude that P&N makes their tools in Australia from:

"Today, Sutton Tools still operates three main manufacturing sites, in:

• Thomastown (northern Melbourne)
• Maryborough (central Victoria)
• Kaiapoi, New Zealand."

If you can find a new P&N branded tool with "Made in Australia" on the label I'll be very surprised.

Suttons dont have a country of manufacture on any of their packaging either

- - - Updated - - -

Suttons dont have a country of manufacture on any of their packaging either.
Unsure where there made only whats on the website

Originally Posted by Itms

Suttons dont have a country of manufacture on any of their packaging either

- - - Updated - - -

Suttons dont have a country of manufacture on any of their packaging either.
Unsure where there made only whats on the website

Not true. I visited local retail outlets during the last discussion and took images of current stock packaging. Some were not labeled with country of origin, but many were including France, Japan, PRC, Taiwan, NZ .... with some even showing the 100% Australian Made logo & Made in Australia. Global manufacturing at work.

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

Not true. I visited local retail outlets during the last discussion and took images of current stock packaging. Some were not labeled with country of origin, but many were including France, Japan, PRC, Taiwan, NZ .... with some even showing the 100% Australian Made logo & Made in Australia. Global manufacturing at work.

Is that for sutton and p&n?
When i was looking at the viper line on particular there was no made on the packaging

Originally Posted by Itms

Is that for sutton and p&n?
When i was looking at the viper line on particular there was no made on the packaging

Both. I forgot to add India above as well.

Quite a lot of their packaging now displays no place or country of manufacture, or if shown the country of manufacture in print very much smaller than the main print around it. The packaging typically shows "100% Australian Owned" quite prominently. I visited high turnover tool stores and the green shed. I have drill bits purchased over a decade ago still in packaging that is definitely marked with "Made in Australia" and displaying the Australian Made logo etc. Some even show the place of manufacture.

Have a look at Sutton's Merchandiser Catalogue to see the brands and lines Sutton supplies - very slick retail marketing displays etc. Sutton Tools Merchandiser Catalogue 2022 by Sutton Tools - Issuu

Then there is the tens of thousands of lines of products, ranges and sizing Sutton supplies.

Drill bits -

62 page Trade DIY drill bit catalogue = https://suttontools-2022.s3-ap-south...s.com/Brochure and Catalogue/Catalogues/Sutton Tools/2_Consumer Catalogue Drilling.pdf

https://suttontools-2022.s3.ap-south...L+brochure.pdf

https://suttontools-2022.s3.ap-south...lls_EuroEN.pdf

I have no problem with the global supply model IF the company maintains quality. There is no doubting Sutton Tools expertise in designing and supplying "World class cutting tools."

I don't like "clever" advertising, promotion & packaging that is quite deliberately and calculatedly designed by the advertising guru's to form the impression that we are some how supporting Aussie jobs. Misleading ??? perhaps not in a strictly legal sense. The trade DIY side of their business has quite slick retail merchandising.

Have look for yourself at their brochures - no prominent place of manufacture Brochures | Sutton Tools

This was in the 174 Mb 362 page 2022 Consumer Catalogue -

Originally Posted by Itms

I am looking at new general purpose drill bits. Is there a difference between them as owned by same company?
Any other suggestions

Back to the original Q - "is there a difference between them."

On the tradie & retail consumer side there is definitely benefits in the various drill bit designs in real world situations. Point angle, cutting face shape etc will offer various pro's and cons such as longevity, wear, risk of damage, performance, drilling force required, power required etc

In my experience with wood turning & doing a lot drilling into end grain for pepper mill, pen and project blanks the Viper out performs all others by a country mile and then some. However when it comes to end grain QLD Maple - all bets are off - even with the Viper bits!

Same applies to Forstner style bit designs, some brands & designs definitely perform very well over all with hole specifications etc. But not always and not in all woods!

Viper bits cut more cleanly with less force and less power required. Resharpen them with the Tormek DB22 to the 4 facet cutting face very significantly improves their performance to a much higher level - in my main application. However if you use that same grind for drilling in mild steel steel it becomes far more fragile.

I just rang Sutton head office in Melbourne. The "gatekeeper" on reception wouldn't put me through to anyone who could answer my questions. But she did give me the email address of Dianne, who in in charge of their imported tools section. The receptionist did say that P&N tools are "probably not" made in Australia.
She also said some of the viper drill bits are made in NZ at what's left of the old factory while the new factory is being built.

I've emailed Dianne and asked her where P&N tools are made. Standby.