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  1. #1
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    Default Challenge 2020-21 Aussiephil - Kanna with a modern twist

    Looks like i'm now in and i think i'll aim for something different and hope that i can pull it off.

    I've got a plan (or should that be plane) in mind but need to start at seemingly the wrong end by doing the blade and chipbreaker before even getting to the body.

    So to that end today I 3D printed some vice parallels for the mill that will let me do an initial mock up of the blade in ALU before committing to steel.
    _Z080760.jpg
    The angles printed are a hint to the design I have in mind

    _Z080761.jpg
    The little mill with some steel plate but it's not thick enough so looks like a trip to ebay will be needed. I need the facing cutter to get off the slow boat from China to get started so may just print up a plastic mock up first.

    Like just about everyone I have too many projects on the books including the new work bench that at 4M long should finally give me some working space
    _Z060759.jpg

    Oh and inline with the whole messy bench this has got to go close to taking a prize, this is the new mobile outfeed/general duties bench that hasn't even got the top sheets fixed down and already it's covered with toys.

    _Z080762.jpg

    So what i'm aiming for is some originality points along with fit for purpose .... looks will be in the eye of the beholder...
    Once i get something better drawn in Fusion360 I should get some renderings up.

    Blades to the battle...

    Phil

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  3. #2
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    Default

    Sounds intriguing Phil. And a messy workbench is a sign of creativity. We all know that.....right.....?

  4. #3
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    Default A 3D printed plane??

    Crickey Phil you got me all excited - I thought you were going to enter a 3D printed plane. Now that would really set the bar for the challenge. Looking forward to seeing where you go with this

    Bob

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Ash View Post
    Sounds intriguing Phil. And a messy workbench is a sign of creativity. We all know that.....right.....?
    It's certainly a sign of something.... at the moment it's more a case for me that i'm continually moving bits around to reshuffle and build and having nowhere yet to better organise ... (where are my kreg screws!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldgreybeard View Post
    Crickey Phil you got me all excited - I thought you were going to enter a 3D printed plane. Now that would really set the bar for the challenge. Looking forward to seeing where you go with this

    Bob
    Bob that is a scary accurate, but let's say it's going to be a hybrid build due to an exciting (to me) design idea i had this morning that may even include dovetail work and an old railway sleeper.

    I hate it when ambition likely far exceeds talent but then it wouldn't be a challenge would it?

    Cheers
    Phil

  6. #5
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    Default

    Omg, what are you planning? 3D printing, dovetails, railway sleeper....

    It's just getting more and more mysterious.

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

  7. #6
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    Wow Phil.

    I was going to make a supercilious remark about you 3D printing a plane, but you have "virtually" done it aready!

    Don't worry about the clutter on the bench. I am just surprised it has not evoked a comment from Matt.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  8. #7
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    Default Mystery unveiled :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cklett View Post
    Omg, what are you planning? 3D printing, dovetails, railway sleeper....

    It's just getting more and more mysterious.

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Wow Phil.

    I was going to make a supercilious remark about you 3D printing a plane, but you have "virtually" done it aready!

    Don't worry about the clutter on the bench. I am just surprised it has not evoked a comment from Matt.

    Regards
    Paul
    I've spent a couple of days reading now on the traditional Japanese Kanna plane and i'm reasonable certain that it will be possible to 3d print the main body both accurately and stiffly enough to function correctly

    The dovetail and railway sleeper is about machining two inserts for the base from some old aged hardwood to provide the contact patches underneath

    KannaBody Concept.PNG

    The concept drawing above doesn't yet include the chipbreaker and as the chip breaker is largely a post ww2 addition to the design I'm considering if it can be made in it's simplist form, body and blade

    It's been hard to find dimensional information but getting there now and will expand that out in a more comprehensive post

    The only thing might be that the body ends up to light even as a near solid print and printing something that size can be an exercise in frustration as solid parts like that can warp during the print.

  9. #8
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    Default Challenge 2020-21 Aussiephil

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Wow Phil.

    I was going to make a supercilious remark about you 3D printing a plane, but you have "virtually" done it aready!

    Don't worry about the clutter on the bench. I am just surprised it has not evoked a comment from Matt.

    Regards
    Paul

    Paul
    Just because some seek a higher being
    With Aspirations of enlightenment

    Cheers Matt.

  10. #9
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Wow Phil.

    Don't worry about the clutter on the bench. I am just surprised it has not evoked a comment from Matt.

    Regards
    Paul
    and @ Matt as well,

    It just dawned on me that I have 4 super cluttered benches including the one on the first post but also one that is surprising clean... so empty the top is not even required yet...

  11. #10
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    Default Blade design

    The kanna-ba - plane blade is traditional made of two layers, a thin layer of high carbon or high speed steel bonded to a soft iron or soft low carbon steel. With the potential to mill most of the blade i'm planning to use tool steel for the entire blade.

    I was lucky to find a lot of info from Kanna sizing and styles. : Tools from Japan, Japanese woodworking tools direct from Japan., they are no longer trading but all the info is still available.

    The blade whilst initially looking simple is after drawing it up and printing a prototype anything but simple. it you add a curve to the top edge there is not a flat surface on any face except the main bevel. 3 degrees seems to be about right for the sides and one face

    i have pick a nominal 65mm wide blade that would be used in a 11.5" (290mm) long body ... will have to get the big printer functional, projects to complete to make projects
    P9090765.jpgP9090764.jpg

    you end up with compound angles and nothing is simple. this doesn't include the 45 deg mitres that come in from the sides at the blade edge. The shikomi-mizo, blade groove, is tapered in two directions, narrowing as it goes deeper into the body. This taper is matched by the blade, and tightens the grip on the blade, front to back, the further it is driven into the body. This groove must be matched to the blade, too large and the blade will be loose, too tight and the blade cannot be adjusted.


    The bevel angle is currently set at 25 deg and the Blade angle is 41 deg. I have chosen 41 as a compromise between a lower angle for softwoods and higher for harder timbers .... though as the challenge is to make pine shavings may need to lower it a bit

    P9090767.jpg

    The picture below shows how the blade sits in the body and the relationship to the timber to be planed
    P9090766.jpg

    Hopefully that explains a little more about this simple plane

  12. #11
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    Default

    Wow, seems you are racing ahead.

    In regard to blade angle. If the traditional Japanese is 41* then I'd stick with it.

    Planes with 45* produce nice shavings on pine. No need to lower it. I am sure the 41* is fine. And I am not saying this sabotage the competition D

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cklett View Post
    Wow, seems you are racing ahead.

    In regard to blade angle. If the traditional Japanese is 41* then I'd stick with it.

    Planes with 45* produce nice shavings on pine. No need to lower it. I am sure the 41* is fine. And I am not saying this sabotage the competition D

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
    This is from a number of different sources

    Blade Angles
    Softwood - 31 to 40 deg
    Medium - 41 to 43 deg
    Hardwood - 45-90 deg

    The 41 is a compromise in some ways for the harder timbers I may end up using this on and being effective on some soft pine

    I'll come to a grinding halt in the next few days as some things coalesce further, design is easy and iterative but turning it into usable product is going to be hard ... learning lots already.

  14. #13
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    Phil,
    This is all looking really good, and complicated an just a smidgen over my head,Iíve heard getting into Japanese tools is even more addictive then Western tools.
    So I will give them a wide berth,for the sake of my wallet.
    But you are really getting into the whole thing,
    Iím very envious of the mill and the 3D printer,

    Cheers Matt.

  15. #14
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    Default an overnight - oh i stuffed that up moment

    In watching a few more videos and doing some pauses it became obvious that i stuffed up reading some dimensional data that resulted in me drawing out the blade design wrong. Rapid prototyping let me see the errors at least

    So the blade post a couple above is essentially still valid except for the 3 deg slope on the sides .... everything i've managed to find so far points to the older style blades have a slight angle whereas a modern design is straight edged

    anyway a new blade prototype is on the printer

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussiephil View Post
    So the blade post a couple above is essentially still valid except for the 3 deg slope on the sides .... everything i've managed to find so far points to the older style blades have a slight angle whereas a modern design is straight edged
    If you need any actual measurements for comparison, I have a few 65mm kanna, so can get general average dimension(s) - pics, too if you need. Btw, I think all are tapered in width, even newer ones (referring to those I have, that is). All of mine are either used or new-old-stock, so can't really say how new any are - could still be a couple of decades old.

    Steve

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