Thread: Tips, Techniques and Theory

Question that sort of fit's into the theory section.

One of the things I will be doing is making the blade from scratch and with the cost of O1 tool steel being what it is I've had my son dig through his scrap metal and find some leaf spring sections that he was dropping off on Saturday but forgot to throw in the car so i'm still waiting

When talking through what i was using them for he said he had some industrial sized paper guillotine blades but neither of us know what they are made of and some quick google searches didn't throw much up.

So question, does anyone know what sort of steel may have been/is used for them? and would they be of use?
Should i get him to drop at least one off?

Over to the brains trust

Thanks
Phil

Originally Posted by Aussiephil

Question that sort of fit's into the theory section.

One of the things I will be doing is making the blade from scratch and with the cost of O1 tool steel being what it is I've had my son dig through his scrap metal and find some leaf spring sections that he was dropping off on Saturday but forgot to throw in the car so i'm still waiting

When talking through what i was using them for he said he had some industrial sized paper guillotine blades but neither of us know what they are made of and some quick google searches didn't throw much up.

It depends on the guillotine. Paper is surprising abrasive so if its a high turnover guillotine it would not surprise me if int was made of an A (A2) type tool Steel. These steels are tough and can form a sharp edge. Heat treatment is problematic for a DIY but if all your have to do is cut it and grind then this should be.

Some guillotines claim to use "soligeng steel " which simply means any steel made in the German town of Solingeng. The soligeng steels used in guillotines include a special hard stainless through to something approaching 1095 (O1) steels.

Originally Posted by BobL

It depends on the guillotine. Paper is surprising abrasive so if its a high turnover guillotine it would not surprise me if int was made of an A (A2) type tool Steel. These steels are tough and can form a sharp edge. Heat treatment is problematic for a DIY but if all your have to do is cut it and grind then this should be.

Some guillotines claim to use "soligeng steel " which simply means any steel made in the German town of Solingeng. The soligeng steels used in guillotines include a special hard stainless through to something approaching 1095 (O1) steels.

Thanks Bob,

That is more than enough to get him to drop one of the blades off.

Yeah paper is some of the quickest ways I know to blunt a sharp knife so i was more concerned that the guillotine blades may be to hard to actually work with in the first place.

Reminded me of a story from a next door neighbor many years ago that when he was younger he was with a firm that made cutting knifes for slicing toilet rolls and the frequency of sharpening/replacement was high.

Phil

How wide is the blade (front to back)? It will be OK if it is 100mm or larger. Also check to see if the cutting edge has an insert of different steel. Should be visible from an edge on viewpoint.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Phil

How wide is the blade (front to back)? It will be OK if it is 100mm or larger. Also check to see if the cutting edge has an insert of different steel. Should be visible from an edge on viewpoint.

Regards
Paul

Paul,
Good questions and i don't have an answer but even if I don't use it for a blade may well find another use .... For my Kanna plane 90mm would be fine and i could get away with maybe 80 even based on the design and printed model.

I'm constantly amazed at what that boy ends up with in the scrap metal bins

Phil

I have bought some moulding knives and planer blades for a similar purpose. I was anticipating having to weld an "extension" piece to the top part of the blade for some applications. depending on the steel, which itself may be an unknown quantity, it may or may not be feasible. I have not yet taken possession of these items so I can't offer further experience at this stage.

Simonds HSS blades (002).jpgSimonds Planer blades (002).jpg

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by IanW

The top one is Black Wattle, MA, not sure exactly which species, but it's a bit denser & harder than Blackwood.

The bottom one is "Solomon Island Ebony" (Xanthostemon melanoxylon). Really dense, really hard, but finishes to a beautiful tactile surface. You've got to be a masochist to overstuff a curved body with this stuff, but it's definitely worth it when you get there...



I've only ever handled one saw with S.O., and that was by request. It's not my first choice for handle woods by a long shot, I find it too coarse and a bit too soft for handles, and it doesn't finish nicely. But I have used lots of She-oak for saw handles, and plane totes & knobs. The she-oaks are much harder & tougher and take a much nicer finish - they feel more like the Rosewood that was used on Stanleys & Records before WW2.

Here's a plane stuffed with She-oak: Done.jpg

Cheers,

That She Oak looks gorgeous and reminds me of Paul and Doug's Bull Oak. I have some Silky Oak pinched from the firewood pile and have turned some previously. It sort of feels spongy but looks lovely. I would imagine that making infill planes is partly an exercise in masochism anyway .

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

That She Oak looks gorgeous and reminds me of Paul and Doug's Bull Oak....

MA, Bull oak (Allocasuarina leuhmannii), Hairy oak (A. inophloia) and She-oak (A. torulosa), are similar in that they all have very large rays. Bull oak typically has the largest, followed by Hairy oak, then She-oak, but there is much variation between individual trees, and much overlap. Colour is a pretty good guide, Bull oak is a dark 'mink' brown, Hairy oak is more flesh-coloured and She-oak a much paler reddish brown, but all go quite dark after a while & it can be hard to distinguish them at times. I sometimes scratch my head over pieces that I dig out of my "useful scraps" bin trying to decide which is which. The acid test is to plane it: Bull oak is as hard as cast iron (well maybe a bit softer ), She oak is a bit easier, though still tough, while Hairy oak is fairly easy to plane.

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

...... I would imagine that making infill planes is partly an exercise in masochism anyway .....

No, mostly an exercise in masochism is probably more accurate...

Cheers,

This was sent to me by a friend.
Watch till the about the end.


I thought you may be interested in this. Modern Edge Tools


Cheers Matt.

Thanks Matt

Most interesting and not quite as mechanised as I would have expected. I thought for a moment at the 2m 54sec mark we had a glimpse of the cleaning lady, but I was wrong. My destiny I suppose.

Regards
Paul

Ok, here is a different request for tips and hint.

What is the best method of securing plane parts for a dovetailed infill plane on a temporary stuffing for peening? How do you make sure it does not move? What are you looking for and checking for during the process of peening that everything stays where it should be?

I am asking because my practise scrub plane build is not going the way I think it should.

Infill Scrub Plane


Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

I thought for a moment at the 2m 54sec mark we had a glimpse of the cleaning lady, but I was wrong. My destiny I suppose.

Ck, I don't know any 'best' way. I've peened a lot of planes by amateur standards, perhaps, but I'm certainly no expert, so all I can do is describe what has worked for me.

I've tried a few different ways to make the peening block. Originally, I followed the instructions I read in a magazine or book decades ago, & cut out the sides of the block to match the sides of the plane (i.e. a mirror image of he tops of the sides). The idea is to support the sides when you peen the dovetails from the sole side. This works pretty well if the block is made very carefully so you get good contact all along the tops of the sides. However, it's a lot of effort to go to for a "one-off". Being frugal, I try to find some scrap of hardwood that is about the right size, and more than once I've used some horrible stuff that's hard & splitty which makes it really difficult to make the cut-out for the sides with the required accuracy. This results in the sides not being supported as as well as they should be, and when I peen the bottoms of the tails, some are a bit "bouncy" because it's not being supported directly underneath where the hammer is striking.

So I followed another suggestion & switched to using bolts to support the sides & clamp them to the block. The more bolts you can use, the better, but you still end up with unsupported bits in between, and so I find myself holding the work on the edge of my anvil block to support the any bouncy sections, which is often very awkward with the bolts gettin in the way, & only a thin edge to rest on the anvil. That will cause bruising of the brass, especially when the narrow side slips off the edge of the anvil block, but the bolts can cause bruises too. Neither is a big issue as long as you don't make a total mess, it's usually quite easy to clean up the bruising on the tops afterwards.

A tip I got from watching/reading Bill Carter is to make sure there is clearance between the sole & the peening block so the sole can be pulled down hard into the side sockets. I put a cardboard shim between the sole & block when setting up, & remove it before I start hammering. I always start peening with the pins on the side, working from the outer edge towards the bottom of the socket to force the sole down firmly in the sockets. Once the pins have locked securely, I switch to the bottoms of the tails & snug them up a bit, which should also tighten the sole against the bottoms of the sockets in the sides.

Likewise, make sure the width of the peening block is exact. Quoting B.C. again, it should be exact, or ever so slightly under sized. The idea is that it won't stop the sides from closing up to the sole sockets completely.

Once he tails look like they are filling properly, I go back & finish peening he pins, then go over the tails again. One place I still get an occasional pin-hole is at the inner corners of those darned tails.

When you have closed the pins & tails completely, the bottoms of the sockets should be pretty tight, but there are always a few visible lines, due to tiny filing errors or the metal flexing away a bit (the teeniest gap shows up so much more on a metal joint than it does with wood!). These should be easy to close by peening along the edges.

Remember, having the work well-supported & using lots & lots of small blows are the go. Watch how the metal is moving & coax it where you want it to go. It takes a while to get the hang of it, but when you do, it is very satisfying to see that metal go where you want it to......

Cheers,

I am about to start cutting the mouth in my sole. I have worked out the geometry for marking the rear blade bed angle, but have stalled on marking out the front. I seem to remember reading somewhere that around 50 degrees was a good angle to allow the shavings to exit easily, but I am not sure. I just had a quick browse through Ian’s good book on planemaking, but I can’t find any mention in there.
Because I want to get started, I think I will cut in at 60 on both front and back, but on the front I won’t file the 60 angle all the way to the bottom, I will leave about 2mm at 90 degrees at the bottom with enough metal left to adjust for a tight mouth. Then at the end I can adjust the bevel to whatever angle is best.
Does anyone know what is considered the optimum angle for the front of the mouth ?