Thread: doing something to a TS16

I made a cyclone to improve my shop dust extraction blower, quite similar to the ones now circulating online. It worked fairly well, but a huge improvement was to install a separater plate, below the cyclone cone. The plate serves to keep the dust and debris in the bucket and not let it stir up with the vortex of incoming air.

Have a look here > J. Phil Thien's Cyclone Separator Lid w/ the Thien Cyclone Separator Baffle < for ideas.

Saw that last night too, as I was typing up the above missive.
The outlet into the bucket is a smidgeon more than 4" diameter, so I could
see significant swirl patterns in the collected material. Suspect it would start
disappearing up the inner cyclone to the outlet if the bucket got more than
1/2 - 2/3 full - still much better with the separate cyclone unit than the
combined units I've seen.

Will be putting something like it on the bottom of my cyclone soon-ish.
Need to first make enough dust to test it out...

Then I thought... stuffit, do it now.

90mm opening at bottom end of cyclone
Figure that the smaller the gap between baffle & cyclone, the more effective it would be
BUT
too small a gap traps stuff in the cyclone.
Went for a 15mm gap as a compromise.

08 phil thien baffle.JPG
60mm part disc in 3-ply.

09 test pile.JPG
Test results on pile of dust & leaves & stuff tipped out of the shed rubbish bin....

10 with thien baffle.JPG
With baffle

11 without thien baffle.JPG
Without baffle

The fall pattern in the bucket suggests to me that the fine dust was being cycloned in the bucket
far more without the baffle.
My perception is that there was a small percentage more of the really, really fine
hang-in-the-air dust found its way to the vac bag without the baffle compared to with it.
But sod all of it gets there, either way.
Great bit of kit !!
cheers

For a shop vac type of thing, the cone is fine and will keep the bulk of material in the bucket. I have a pretty big squirrel cage blower sucking on 4" (102 mm) hard lines. I move a substantial volume of air and debris, across about 70' (21.3 m) of duct, back to the bags. I was getting clogs as it dumped into the collection bags, so I installed longer (taller) bags which helped, but also reduced volume (lose of back pressure), so I installed an angled gate, which helped knock the big stuff out of the column of debris laden air. This lead me to a real cyclone effect and baffle plate, so now my system uses a double cyclone. The first portion is similar to the cone, though I angled the inlet down a few degrees to help stuff the debris down the cone. Just under the cone is the baffle, spaced down about 6" (150 mm), which takes the spinning air column and spins it some more, but strips the big stuff out along the edge of the baffle. My bags have just dust and I collect the debris in a 55 gallon drum. I also have slightly increase volume at the gates. I wouldn't think a shop vac needs this level of separation, but for those looking to setup their shop with a dust evacuation system, you can greatly improve it's abilities, using a small motor, with these types of modifications. My system works so well now, it can suck the dimples off a golf ball.

Great job on your shop vac AJ. A significant difference in the spaced baffle bucket. You may want to play with the baffle distance to see how much more you can get. Also a beveled edge, (chisel shaped) also increase effectiveness a bit, though the sharpened edges can get beat up. I've used a 25 degree bevel with good effect. Of course this is in the splitting hairs range, but I was curious.

Lastly on shop vac device, I'd install some vertical strips in the bucket to further knock down the swirling air mass. Maybe angled to force the swirl down. Possibly with a second baffle mid way down the bucket, spaced out by the strips, which could prevent output air contamination.

Thanks PAR.
Been chewing over the baffles thing today.
Did some reading up on cyclones & their vortex patterns & etc before I started the build.
Not anything slightly mathematical mind you, just principles & pictures.

As it stands, the drum circulation seems to keep fine particulates away from the ascending exit vortex,
even without the little Thien plate.

The air mass in the drum is effectively a closed system.
Any deflections in its movement have to be back-filled from within itself.
It would take careful design to kill the velocity of dust-bearing air without causing random swirling,
with possibility of introducing fine particles back into exit vortex.
Or the brute force option where drum baffles be plentiful & huge to damp the air sufficiently to settle the fine stuff.

What I don't understand in any event, is why the cyclone so effectively centrifuges everything out,
yet dust-devils & tornadoes & etc seem to move matter into their core.

But I might just be over-thinking all this in an effort to avoid applying myself to sorting out 12 hours of lesson plans
on 100 varieties of nails, screws, masonry anchors, electrical fittings & backing plates, and domestic & commercial
surfaces they might conceivably be used on... "teaching" power company lines apprentices a mixture of egg-sucking
and total irrelevance...

cheers

continuing to avoid lesson preparation....

Re-read your 1st response PAR & realised you have placed the plate lower in the collection drum.
The narrow gap between cyclone & my mini Thien plate was bothering me - larger objects could easily
get stuck above it, and certainly some particles have trouble falling past it. I could hear them
rattling around in the cyclone until power killed.
As an off-cut from making a trolley was a circle and just a tad over-size, decided to give it a go.

As my locating lugs stick down about 25mm, I set the plate about 70mm below the cyclone.
(The fact that I had 3 x 160mm long bits of chipboard handy as baffles had a lot of bearing on this...)
Removed the Thien plate & fired it up.

12 tub baffle.JPG
Some heavier particles get stuck on the locating tabs.
you can see the outline of the baffles drawn on top of the plate.

13 tub baffle fall pattern.JPG
Fall in the bucket appears to be in order of deposit. No evidence of fine dust swirling, however
there was only a little fine dust picked up today, so it wasn't a direct comparison with yesterday's tests.
Again, no appreciable amount of dust got through to the Vac bag.

14 trolley.JPG
The almost completed trolley. Stops the bucket falling over as the hose extends.
Keeps things together. The vac exhausts downwards through a cut-out in the base.
Rough as guts, but it's functional, not decorative.

Should have started a separate thread for this.
Might ask a moderator to move these posts...
cheers
AJ

AJ, my system works a bit differently than a shop vac. A shop vac is a closed loop, with intake air de-pressurizing the container and a small amount bled off to cool the motor. My system uses fresh ambient air, which is blown directly into the cyclone, past the baffle, then into a collection bag, which breaths. The intake side of the system is gated, at the end of hard tubing and the negative pressure generated by the volume of air blown through the cyclone. Simply put, mine is a sucker system, while yours is a blower. You can switch the hose and use it as a blower, I haven't any chance of this, because of pressure drop after the cyclone.

As to the baffle, I found it cleaned up the flow better than just a cone, but I'm also working with a much bigger system of different configuration. Now that I've had a chance to think about this approach on a shop vac, I think a baffle will improve "drop out" but this may also be just as effective with a deeper can. A buddy of mine with a door and window shop uses a similar system as I, except it's a blower (fan is up stream, unlike my down stream arrangement). He uses a very tall collection can an no baffle. The idea we think, is the column of swirling dust still rises up in the can, but the height prevents any from getting blown back out.

Considering how well just the cyclone works, you may just leave well enough alone and bag your filter to make clean up easy. On the other hand, if you're like me, you might get a significant more amount of drop out, if the baffle is spaced low enough below the cone, yet high enough above the bottom of the can. How much, who knows. I moved mine several times, testing each and eventually "settled", because I was tired of playing with it. For what it's worth . . .

I is tired of playing with the cyclone.
Have tweaked the bucket plate to increase the drop zone, and added screws to adjust the height.
It is now 40mm below the cyclone cone and still some debris remains on it. (

Ripped out the bunk framing on the weekend. And the compression post.
Already looking more spacious, and sooooo much easier to clamber around.
Wish I was looking at bare ply or clear coat rather than paint.
Lots of loose/peeling topcoat. Cast Iron bitch trying to remove it....
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Also, there's always at least one screw left behind... (didn't photo it)

Gouged out an enormous amount of pox around the CB case logs. 3 or 4 bolts to go...
Also found a bit of rot around the case logs. Good thing the whole case is destined
for the Yo-heave-Ho !!
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141020121372sm.jpg

Need to build bilge-board cases before proceeding, as these will determine the actual cut-outs required in the hull.
Also thinking it a good idea to get new mast/s organised, pending step / staying mods/deletion...

I don't know if there's a good reason why centre boards don't seem to be fitted with steel toe-caps.
Inserts anyway.
Seemed an easier way to limit the board-eating limestone reef damage around Clayton Bay & the Coorong
than shaping a new hardwood leading edge
So now they are fitted. 12mm x 3mm x 300mm stainless strips, edge forward, bedded in a pox filled groove.
if it doesn't work out, I can remove & replace them without too much drama.

18 steel toecaps in bilge boards.jpg

That's my theory anyway.
Also occurs to me that the whole lower cabin fit-out - bilge boards, sand, scrape & recoat, re-build bunks & stowage, etc.,
will be less uncomfortable if the roof were already removed. So I can move onto excising that while I procrastinate about
case wall thickness & clearances, run-outs & bracing fore & aft, capping & up-haul arrangements.

I have two ways of doing damage prone edges on appendages. The first is a shallow grove cut along the edge and an epoxy soaked length of polyester single braid line, glued into the groove, then faired flush with thickened epoxy. Works well and can absorb all sorts of impacts. The second one, I'm using more and more and I still make the groove, but fill it with epoxy, thickened with pulverized stone. There are several stones you can get, limestone, granite, quartz, etc. all work well. A little silica to get a non-sagging mixture and you literally end up with a stone edge. Of course, you need to be artful about applying this mixture, because it's a bear to sand fair, when cured, but if you work it while still green you can get a good job. Metals are my last choice, as are plastics, such as HDPE. Just too hard to attach reliably, without fasteners coming loose and letting moisture in.

Another approach is a sacrificial edge or tip. Once the board or blade is made, you simple cut the likely damaged edge or tip off the appendage. Then glue it back on with thickened epoxy. Some even make a new tip of a denser wood. The idea being you're going to tear it up, but the glue line prevents the moisture from going any further and you just replace the tip or edge when it's too battered.

Thanks PAR
I did my s/s strip thing simply because I had the strips there in front of me,
and was fiddling with the Triton for something else.
I've heard of the cut-away/re-glue front corner thing.
Never tried it, mainly because I couldn't visualise how to reattach it straight
while padding out the glue line to the cut kerf.

The stone one sounds interesting... I'd worry about it being brittle.

Anyway, after gluing in the s/s strips, I gave both boards, a couple of coats of epoxy
& set them aside while I went off & played fireman & various other bits & pieces.

To fill in odd time slots since then, I have spent several more hours grinding filler out
from around the centre case log nuts (all done now), and spot-scraping loose / bubbling
paint inside. Will leave centre case in place as reference for marking out the holes for
the new bilge board cases when I get around to making them.

The last week or four, I've come back to the boards, sanded them smooth, ground out
some incomplete glue lines & other faults in the timber & back-filled them with pox. Also did
xmas on a variety of fronts, rather more than I'd intended. When you are not (officially)
working, there's an awful lot of important things crying out for volunteers' time or they don't
happen. I don't begrudge the time at all - enjoyed working with a couple of groups of quite
extraordinary people. Does rather interfere with boat building though...
Glassed the tips more-or-less as per MIK's website / OzRacer instructions, played fireman
some more, & finally tonight, got around to starting the main glassing. Aiming for wet-on-
tacky, 3 or 4 coats over 6oz glass. Will get another layer on late tonight & a third termorrer.
Jig has had a few boards over it over the years...
019 glassing board.jpg

Ignore the back-ground. It only looks organised because not much gets used.

A posting over on MIK's sub-forum looks interesting for its sail plan/handling.
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/l...ml#post1584336
TS16 standard rig is 180 sq ft. or near enough 16.5 sqM.
A pair of 7sqM or so sailboard rigs cat-ketched & set up as per this OzRacer would be light & cheap.
Could even get a bit silly & set a 3rd mast with a 4 sqM sail on the transom...
Would that be a mizzen or a spanker ?
Reefing could be a bother, especially single handed. Maybe keep a couple of 4.5m sails & spars on hand... ?

Originally Posted by PAR

Considering how well just the cyclone works, you may just leave well enough alone and bag your filter to make clean up easy. On the other hand, if you're like me, you might get a significant more amount of drop out, if the baffle is spaced low enough below the cone, yet high enough above the bottom of the can. How much, who knows. I moved mine several times, testing each and eventually "settled", because I was tired of playing with it. For what it's worth . . .

Did some more fiddling after all. Put long screws in the base of the baffle legs to adjust height. Settled on
a separation between baffle & cyclone base of about 40mm. A significant amount of hair-like material catches
on the locating lugs, which in turn catches a fair bit of dust. However, the vast majority finishes up in the
bucket, & virtually none in the vac, which was to be achieved. Even so, it is still tempting to try & fix those lugs...

In a play-off cleaning the church after a Big Xmas Do which included lots of hay, my little vac was handling
dust better than much more expensive newer units. It wasn't clogging so it just kept on sucking, and wasn't
getting anywhere near as hot, even after almost 3 hours continuous running (it's a fair-sized building).
Not bad for a second-hand vac purchased 25 years ago for just $10.

AJ, the stone mixture isn't brittle, just the opposite and very tough. I discovered it accidentally and it works very well. I use decomposed granite, but pulverized quartz or just about any hard mineral or stone will do, the finer the better of course. If worried about brittleness, just toss some milled fibers into the mix, which will tie things together neatly. On small craft you get a very mild ballasting action as a result too.

Thanks PAR
Stone mix filed away in back of brain for future use/reference.

Still picking away at the boards.
Had to relocate the poxy plug for the lifting tackle further down the trailing edge.
Wasn't planning on a board mounted block when I drilled the original plug, but there
is just enough mechanical disadvantage against its weight to make a 2:1 tackle
worth-while. 3 or 4mm spectra is cheaper than thicker cordage too.

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8mm cheeks applied to give a decent board thickness for stability around the pivot, a secure channel for the lifting tackle,
and bigger & flatter bearing on the case walls for less wobble. In about that order of importance. I think.

310120131582sm.jpg

One last sanding & smoothing, & the final coat/s of epoxy will go on.

One cheek didn't go on quite square, but was surprisingly easy to sand true.
Making things flat & square is something I find extraordinarily difficult.

Likewise drilling holes square to a face. Thinking to buy a drill press to do the
pivot holes. But before I do that I need a suitable bench-top on which to bolt it.
And clear space. And shorter access path between shed & boat. So no more
progress expected while I reduce clutter, rebuild the bench-top & make a gate
between back yard & car-port. And find a new home for the long timber stacked
across where the gate needs to go, for which I don't currently have a use but
they are too good to just chuck away... ARRRRGH !!!!....