Thread: dragon boat plans

Clinton

If you have regular web access - it seems you do - try searching for traditional Chinese boat building - for example sampan means '3-plank' and junks just add more planks to the basic design.

I have a nasty suspicion that the locals may have been 'taught' by the Indonesians that small boats sink - i.e. if we catch you in a small boat we will sink you & you can walk home. Also there may now be a shortage of long timber to make the keel boards for bigger boats.

The FAO boats were designed for just that situation Clinton. I honestly don't know how successful they are though, they might be rubbish. I guess your first task is to find out what timbers are available locally or what the local 'mills' can produce.

Back in the forties, my father's first job was with the local packing shed (he lived in the Riverland). Part of his job was to go through the stacks of floor boards as they came in, choosing suitable timber for the local boat builder. The boats were flat bottomed and often double ended (because that stopped cattle trying to climb over the transom when being swum across the creeks and rivers). The point of the story being that the local boat builder used lumber intended for house building to produce his boats. You may be able to transfer that sort of thinking to your local production.

Richard

Originally Posted by Clinton1

Thats why I do stuff like this in my spare time.

More power to you mate.

Look, I'm guessing and theorising. I can only hope that my thoughts trigger something in your mind.

Richard

theorise away... gives memore to think about than me doing it on my own.

Net access... it hasn't been too bad lately... comes and goes and so do I (out in the bush I've got nothing but what I carry.

I can get Meranti for keels, and the dug out timber can be milled... I've been cultivating a timber yard owner who is a very nice guy... can get timber in up to 4 meter lengths, Meranti at US$500 per cube, teak for not much more.
Meranti doesn't shrink... green dimensions are same as dry, and there is no kiln drying in Timor... most furniture is made from wet timber (literally wet!) and then shrinks as it dries. Meranti doesn't shrink. Timber isn't a problem.

Yeah, local boats were sunk... it was about keeping locals out of the resource base.

Thaks to the tip about the Welsford boat, I've found them (Aussie boats for East Timor) . I'll have a chat with them tomorrow.

Trouble with the FAO boats is that you need to power, sail or ROW them. Rowing is not known here... I foresee the design being rejected due to the inability to paddle it.
Maybe rowing races?

Originally Posted by bitingmidge

On another thread Clinton asked for info on the Aussie Boats for East Timor project, and I forgot to get back! Sorry!

http://www.bri.net.au/~abet/

I found them first!

P

Originally Posted by Clinton1

Thaks to the tip about the Welsford boat, I've found them (Aussie boats for East Timor) . I'll have a chat with them tomorrow.

Dunno that I'd give you two bob for Welsford's ideas on a boat or what would be required up there. You've already made it clear that plywood isn't the go.

Trouble with the FAO boats is that you need to power, sail or ROW them. Rowing is not known here... I foresee the design being rejected due to the inability to paddle it.
Maybe rowing races?

I've been doing a bit of research and while I haven't yet come up with much about the traditional boats, I'm finding photos from the region that show long, narrow, canoe like critters, which fits in with your 'paddle it' comments. No outriggers either, these were properly balanced craft.

Mik, what are the chances of a planked version of your Eureka? Not unlike the photos I'm finding in concept - flat bottomed, flat sided, double ended. Sure, the Eureka was designed for a ply not planks, and for a different role in life, but as a starting point it's not utterly stupid.

The trick would seem to be to take the timber that's available locally (and you've got a mill that's happy to play) and fit it to what the locals are comfortable with (which seems to be a canoe like craft).

I could be really nasty and suggest that you fly Mik up there to have a look at the situation, but that'd be dropping all sorts of people in the muck wouldn't it
And if you're wondering why I'm picking on Mik, it's because this is a problem that I think fits in with his views on boat building and life. However, it may be waaaayyyyy beyond his comfort zone so I'm happy for my thoughts to be no more than a bit of comradely stirring.

Getting back to Clinton and the folks on the ground. I understand fully what you mean about the decimation of the population and the knowledge pool. However, old geezers have a habit of hanging on and old knowledge has a habit of emerging. It may be that the best thing you can do is to stir up the ants a little and see what emerges. Publicly start putting together your own boat from local lumber and wait for the inevitable old bugga to wander up and tell you what you're doing wrong. The old 'silly Aussie, you make it arm span wide not narrow like that, you'll fall out" type of comment. Look closely at the wrecks around the place and try to replicate them. Hell, look at crap boats that are being used and try to build a new version of them. Talk to the locals and see what they think is a 'good boat' - it's funny how local predjudice can lead a deeper understanding of how things used to be, like the paddling bit. Make your own inept interpretations of such and see what happens - at worst you'll get very wet but if you make sure you have fun doing it, what does that matter?

Richard
I'm going to bed, I think I detected something resembling coherence back there somewhere

Originally Posted by Daddles

Dunno that I'd give you two bob for Welsford's ideas on a boat or what would be required up there. You've already made it clear that plywood isn't the go.

if you could swap teak for plywood and other materials it might generate enough income.

(just in the terms that it might spark an idea)

Also be careful with meranti - the deep red stuff is quite rot resistant but the pink or white stuff rots out faster than anything else known to man.

Mik, what are the chances of a planked version of your Eureka?

The twist in the bilge panels is hard to accomodate. I'd be thinking a flat bottomed boat with a crossplanked bottom would be worth considering - with the plank lengths available - traditional sharpie style unless very skinny - which might be the best solution too.

Flat bottoms make a lot of sense as a starting point - It is hard to tell, but I would be suspicious that the donated boats would blow around pretty badly almost requiring an outboard to keep them under control. Again - talk to the locals. The biggest benefit would seem to be leveraging what is left of their own boat traditions as they will reflect the materials available (maybe). I'd definitely be asking the locals what they think of the donated boats by asking how much they use them and how useful they are and what they use them for - and if there are any improvements they can see/imagine.

(in other words pretty close to what Daddles is saying)

I could be really nasty and suggest that you fly Mik up there to have a look at the situation, but that'd be dropping all sorts of people in the muck wouldn't it
And if you're wondering why I'm picking on Mik, it's because this is a problem that I think fits in with his views on boat building and life. However, it may be waaaayyyyy beyond his comfort zone so I'm happy for my thoughts to be no more than a bit of comradely stirring.

I'm interested in the idea - but there needs to be more homework first. I'll also say if I am not the person for the job - the last thing that Timor needs is a freeloader who cannot make the maximum contribution. I can possibly help find the right person too - skilled, but open to ideas.

Publicly start putting together your own boat from local lumber and wait for the inevitable old bugga to wander up and tell you what you're doing wrong. The old 'silly Aussie, you make it arm span wide not narrow like that, you'll fall out" type of comment.

Sage advice I think. Just going back to the practicality side - a monthly race with worthwhile prizes could help on this side as well.

It has occurred to me that if a race replicates the required use for the boats during work then they will be useful for that side too. Maybe a payload race that has an offshore leg - or whatever the normal and most useful "use pattern" is. Don't have too many rules that define the type of boat - maybe a length one to head off that particular arms race -but little else to allow design and construction solutions to evolve.

Bring visiting experts in for workshops from time to time to build people's skills and introduce new ideas.

Hang the whole thing off intervillage rivalry or religious sentiment (name the boats after saints), big beach parties, tools as prizes or whatever the locals value highly.

I promise you ... after a few years the boats will probably evolve into a less useful racing type -but there will have also been a lot of ideas and skills developed in the meantime.

(maybe it will become so cool that dragon boat paddlers will want to come to Timor!)

Extend the difficulty and requirements for the race as the boats improve.

However ... at the same time realise that this is only one of an infinite number of possibilities for leveraging the whole thing.

I'm going to bed, I think I detected something resembling coherence back there somewhere

Daddles - Does all that writing mean that you still haven't finished that assignment?


Clinton - keep up the good work - this is both a useful and an interesting discussion.

Michael

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Daddles - Does all that writing mean that you still haven't finished that assignment?

I'm a practical man, not an academic. I'm studying to do what is essentially a practical job (in my eyes anyway) and which is being taught that way, but the assignments are being marked with an academic eye ... so I'm in real trouble. We used to have the same trouble when putting the creative writing students (masters) in with the literture students (honours) - one of the lecturers told us quietly that she like having the creative writing students in her tuts because they gave the lit mob a real wake up. I haven't shifted from non-fiction mode to fiction mode to get this assignment out, but I'm close.

Richard
dammit, procrastinating again

Clinton1, you have few choices. The best and most reasonable, given your available materials and labor base, is to build three new log canoes. I grew up with a similar boat in my area. we raced them and the fleet is still very active (Chesapeake log canoes).

Look you have some old men there that have built these things. Bend their ear and find one that will show you how to build one. There's not going to be any plans, just a skilled boat builder that's well past his prime, probably quite flattered someone is interested in reviving his craft.

Yep, it'll require some leg work on your part. You'll likely have to talk with hundreds of old fisherman, but I'll bet a few names keep cropping up in your conversations with the old fishermen. That's the guy you want, the old master builder. Beg borrow and drag him down to the beach and make a deal he can't refuse. Explain your cause and interest, I'm sure he'll be thrilled to pass on his skills so the art doesn't die.

Clinton

How about using the FAO boat with a Polytarp sail - I am sure that it would be possible to design a really good standing lug sail (like the one Mik put on the OzPDR). The step for the mast doesn't need to be very sophisticated (nor does the mast and spars) and the rigging is really just bits of rope - no really tricky stuff.

Why not introduce the East Timorese to sail (after all they were a Portuguese colony and those blokes knew a bit about sailing - Vasco da Gama etc....) - they will discover that it requires much less effort from them compared to paddling to get a bigger haul of fish (might help with the malnutrition).

Hey Mik, maybe you can do the sail set up?

just a bump... for your minds and mine!

Originally Posted by Clinton1

Trouble with the FAO boats is that you need to power, sail or ROW them. Rowing is not known here... I foresee the design being rejected due to the inability to paddle it.
Maybe rowing races?

I'd disagree. Any boat can be paddled. A wider boat simply requires roughly equal weight each side doing the work. And will have a lower top speed for a given length & weight.

Also, you comment that the glass hull in one of the photos is clapped out. That suggests heavy use rather than lack of use ! Maybe they are not as resistant to doing things "differently" than words might suggest ?

I still do not understand why locals regard plywood boats as being non-repairable. Technically, and if one were not fussy about looks, ply should be the easiest material to repair of all. If a boat were properly built for local conditions - gravel beachings & bommies - it should be a difficult thing to hole in the first place. Could you elaborate on this ?

Another idea - corrugated iron boats. That material should be plentiful. As the corro boat regatta up Lismore way shows, they can be quite sophisticated with only a little effort & low cost. In last year's event, the winners were effectively modern planing sailing skiffs. "Odd Job" cost her owner a whole $150 using scrap & 2nd-hand materials, bamboo mast & polytarp sails. Ole'55 was converted from double-end canoe to skiff a few nights before the regatta.

cheers
Alan J.

I still do not understand why locals regard plywood boats as being non-repairable.

Because:
1. you can not buy fibreglass and epoxy unless you import it yourself;

2. Fishermen earn about $35 per week... which is right on subsistance level... therefore a $10 repair means 2 days without food for the family (or more), even though the wife will be earning supplemental income;

3. Locally available 3 ply is terrible quality, not ply so much as 1/2 treated wood pulp with a 0.5mm veneer skin. Anything other than 3 ply needs to be specially imported. (Its actually cheaper to build from teak plank than make an object from 5 ply! I am not kidding.)

4. Maintenance - no materials in the shops and no-one knows what to buy anyway.

glass hull in one of the photos is clapped out. That suggests heavy use rather than lack of use

They are not resistant to change...
originally the boats were heavily used, but when holed they became 'unrepairable'... due to cost, and lack of materials and knowledge.

Repairs were done through NGO's or 'asking a foreigner to come and do it and foot the bill' - (literally a bloke goes on holidays to Aus and comes back with glass and epoxy in his suitcase and does it himself with 'watchers').
As it takes so long to get this done (maybe months of asking), that when repaired the boats are just painted up and put up for sale in the hope they will become a foreigners fishing 'weekender'.
Not unrepairable... just 'not repairable by us' - if that makes more sense?
This applies to ply, plastic, fibreglass and aluminium boats.

Also, there is no rescue service and people are poor swimmers and the currents are fierce at change of tide. Therefor 'home repairs' (fix the hole in the ply with two planks and nails) are seen as a death warrant.


Hope this puts things a bit clearer... its a whole different world here and explaining it is sometimes difficult.

Gal Iron boats... that will make me think tonight, it'll take ages to get to sleep. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Clinton1

They are not resistant to change...

I was thinking in terms of paddling vs rowing rather than construction technologies. And by extension, (relatively) wide boats vs narrow boats.

Also, there is no rescue service and people are poor swimmers and the currents are fierce at change of tide. Therefor 'home repairs' (fix the hole in the ply with two planks and nails) are seen as a death warrant.

They are a good deal more cautious than I then. I'd cheerfully clench nail some teak over a hole in plywood. Especially if there was some form of gum available to assist the seal. Might be careful with it for a while until the repair was 'proven'. In any event, I require any small boat of mine to have in-built buoyancy, so if a patch were to fail catastrophically, it shouldn't be a death warrant. Especially as I too am a fair weather boatie.

The lack of a rescue service might be a kybosh on the galv boats. Would need to build in buoyancy to satisfy the above 'death warrant' concerns. Not easy to do against a corrugated iron skin. Buoyant outriggers might assist. As would fishing in company with other boats.

cheers
AJ