Thread: I NEED EXPERT ADVICE on wooden sailing boat!

Fresh water is what rots boats not salt water. The

plastic / (according to the owner) a thick epoxy coating and when I looked at it, feels like a thick flexible rubber coating.

worries the crap out of me and my first reaction is to tell you to run as fast as you can in the other direction. Most of the time, these types of treatments on a carvel hull is to "fix" a problem, which of course is precisely the wrong way to do things.

Look, there are right ways to do things and wrong ways, this is the wrong way and it's best to avoid these types of "projects" unless you need a tax write off or other money pit into which you'll toss thousands.

Your impression that the wood is completely sealed below the waterline is incorrect, it needs to be encapsulated for a complete seal.

The best advise anyone can offer is to have the boat surveyed by a professional who is familiar with the type and construction method. No offense intended, but judging by your assumsions and questions, I'd say you're in way over your head and should look for another boat.

[QUOTE=PAR;1181608]Fresh water is what rots boats not salt water. The worries the crap out of me and my first reaction is to tell you to run as fast as you can in the other direction. Most of the time, these types of treatments on a carvel hull is to "fix" a problem, which of course is precisely the wrong way to do things.]

Came across this opinion before, however, on some other forums there we people having this kind of protective coatings for 20 years without a problem, but of course, you could be right!


[Your impression that the wood is completely sealed below the waterline is incorrect, it needs to be encapsulated for a complete seal.]

Not an impression, but the information given to me by the owners, which I now in turn try to verify.

[The best advise anyone can offer is to have the boat surveyed by a professional who is familiar with the type and construction method.]

Indeed, that is probably going to be the very best option!



[No offense intended, but judging by your assumsions and questions, I'd say you're in way over your head and should look for another boat./]


You could well be right if their is a big problem, It would be a complete waste of time an money. If the boat is having no problems at all, it would be a very nice one to restore and that is exactly what I am trying to find out.

The reality is: There are many different opinions out there and most of them tell me not to worry too much if the boat managed to surfive for so long (50 years) and 15 years with the coating outside under the waterline. I scraped the wood, and touched it with screwdrivers to find out if any of the hull was soft, particularly at the bottom above the keel. Found nothing so far.

But indeed, a good expert might be the best option.
I already requested a quote for inspection.

Thanks for all your advice,

Udo

Never trust what an owner has told you, they are trying to sell a boat, not provide an unbiased opinion of it's condition. It's also very unlikely they have any real idea what the honest condition of their vessel actually is.

I've been repairing this type of damage for 30+ years and the story is almost universally the same in nature, sounding very much like what you've described above and bearing little with the reality and the physics of it all.

A carvel boat is best left as a carvel boat, not partially encased in plastic. The plastic just provides a handy sack for the eventual rotten mess to collect in.

Get a good survey while she's on the hard and you'll have a better idea. As a restoration, the first task I would preform is to remove the plastic sheathings. She appears to be in good condition and worthy restoration, but the camera angles don't help much and the images aren't of the places I'd want a better look at.

Originally Posted by PAR

A carvel boat is best left as a carvel boat, not partially encased in plastic. The plastic just provides a handy sack for the eventual rotten mess to collect in.

PAR: Don't you think, that if that was the case, the boat should have been completely rotten after 15 years?

Originally Posted by PAR

Get a good survey while she's on the hard and you'll have a better idea. As a restoration, the first task I would preform is to remove the plastic sheathings. She appears to be in good condition and worthy restoration, but the camera angles don't help much and the images aren't of the places I'd want a better look at.

We have to get her back out of the water for that! The owners did put her into the water at the beginning of the summer. and btw: which places would you like to see for inspections?

Another issue what i noticed: I have seen (during my search for boats) a couple of wooden boats and most of the time, the inside of the hulls look absolute stunning: clean wood, clean ribs, whilst with this boat, the inside is dirty, kind of black. I just wonder what caused this darkness on the inside of the hull.

here an example: image 54 a good example:

http://dev.colourcertainty.co.uk/01I...oats/Tärneflu/

did not buy this boat since the outside cockpit was so extremely small and even for me alone unconfortable small space to sit in, but overall nice boat.


Thanks for letting me know.

Udo

Don't you think, that if that was the case, the boat should have been completely rotten after 15 years?

Not necessarily, but it certainly is an effective method at hiding it.

I've surveyed enough boats of this general configuration to have a fairly specific set of places to look first. The first image on that photo storage site, shows an interesting reverse in the sheer. It may be just the image angle, but also could be an indication of a hog too.

The first things I would look at would be fasteners in the bilge and the hood ends of the planks, deadwood assembly alignment, etc. The first things I would notice would be what I smell. A skilled nose can find rot where there isn't any to be seen.

Black stains can be from a number of things. Most commonly they are from using linseed oil. Tung oil would be a preferred oil to use, but linseed is cheaper and more readily available, so people take short cuts. Of course with age, linseed oil darkens to a grayish black, tung doesn't. Water stains are black, so is some forms of rot. Naturally, mold and other fungi are also black and also are common on wooden boats.

I like small cockpits on small, off shore capable boats. It's a nice safety feature, though if not self draining, difficult to live with and not very party friendly.

Again, she appears a nice example of what she is, but I'm very skeptical of partly sheathed carvel boats and understandably so. I own a 40', 1960 carvel boat, cedar over oak. I personally caulked her 7 years ago, at that time replace a few planks and made some repairs. Today her bilge is dry, dusty in fact and she doesn't need a sheathing to maintain this state. Now, to be honest, I went to a lot of trouble making her tight. I replaced her plank fasteners, several planks, new garboards, removed all butt blocks in favor of scarfed in blanks, etc. Once I got her sound, she's been happy to keep her bilge clean and dry for me. Those that say your carvel should have water in it's bilge have never been on a properly kept carvel.

Howdy,

I agree with PAR that the way to approach such a boat is with caution. If you can overcome the uncertainties then it becomes a good buy that is backed with research.

I think the most important thing is to get a survey from someone knowledgeable. Whether the boat is cheap or in the normal price range this is money well spent. Even with the slipping cost.

Another way that can reduce the uncertainty is to go for a sail. Lots of boats look good and behave well when sitting at a mooring but go out in a good sailing breeze and you will quickly find out if there are basic structural problems.

It still doesn't tell you much about rot.

A lot of PAR's caution is because the outside of the hull is not available for inspection. If you could see the exterior planking and it was floating OK that would be a big tick. But not being able to see what it behind the sheathing does create an extra level of concern because it can create a nice environment to hold water against the outside of the hull.

Remember these are all cautions that you have to look into. Go through the posts above and pick out the main points to create a list. Then tick things off when you know what the situation is or have some evidence that each is OK. You could even give the list to the surveyor.

She is a great looking boat. It appears that the exterior has been quite well cared for .. which might extend to the rest of the unseen boat. But would definitely try to find more info out yourself with further close examination and then if still looks OK then a survey is a good investment.

MIK

Hello Par and Mik, many thanks for your replies.


Question for PAR:

1. PAR, do you think that an expert would be able to evaluate the boat with the protection on the outside of the hull at all?
2. Would modern surveying equipment and ultra sound be a help in this?

few more commends:

1. The smell inside the boat is definitely not fresh.
2. The water inside the hull above the keel having having some kind of smell from engine fuel or oil.


"Of course with age, linseed oil darkens to a grayish black, tung doesn't. Water stains are black, so is some forms of rot. Naturally, mold and other fungi are also black and also are common on wooden boats."

3, According to the owner: the freeboards allow water to pass through at the beginning of the sailing season, when the boat is dry after the winter season.

"Once I got her sound, she's been happy to keep her bilge clean and dry for me."

4. I have done lots of wood restoring in the past, never done on a boat, but would love to tackle such a project, so I am not scared for the work it might involve. But the time I might spend might be worth much more than the money spend on the boat, therefore, I don't mind the work, but of course, only if the boat hull is OK!

Thanks again for your advice!

Udo

Given the right surveyor, yes they can evaluate the planking. I'm one of only two persons that a major insurance company accepts, to survey wooden yachts in my area. This is because our surveys are accurate and reliable. Not all are, so check with your insurance company and local marinas for the trusted surveyors.

Ultra sound can be helpful, but not on a yacht of this size or build method.

Most wooden boats have a smell to them. A combination of fuel, oils, plastics out gassing from "carry ons", the inability to keep a bilge dry, etc. all contribute to this. It isn't necessary nor healthy for the boat. Ventilation is the key to a wooden boat having a long life. Judging by the photos, the boat seems to be well arranged for ventilation, but then again, I'm not seeing the whole boat, let alone smelling her.

Once experienced with the different types of rot, mold and other contaminates often found in a wooden boat, you can become aware of things without seeing them. You literally can smell them.

I'm not sure what the owner is calling the "freeboards" but I'll assume these are the topside planks. A properly caulked boat doesn't let water get past their seams, regardless of climate. Some boats are prone to this climatic contraction and typically hardwood planked boats have this problem. Water shouldn't be able to pass through the planking for any reason. It's not normal, nor acceptable. This said, if you leave the boat on a mooring for several months in a dry climate, the topside seams will open a bit, but they swell shut with the first rain or sail. This amounts to minor leaking, not passing water through the planks. Boats that experience this usually need to be recaulked.

Restoring a boat is very different then general wood repairs and restoration on land based projects. The mill work, shaping and finishing to a degree, is similar, but application, process and techniques are different. What works on land, most often doesn't on a boat. None of it is especially hard, just different and I highly recommend you get into a project, you'll probably love it.

In that vain, I'd strongly recommend a much smaller project then a 24' folkboat sister. Find a 15' boat in need of a friend. You can really take a bath on a 24' boat, but a 15'er can be manageable to cut your teeth on. The techniques will be the same, the pieces less costly to replace and you don't need a crane to hoist her out.

In most cases, a restoration is a more costly method to have a boat. It's usually cheaper to build new then restore. Repairing and replacing broken parts is more costly in materials and time then just cutting a new one out and placing it in the assembly, that will eventually become the new boat.

I've been at this quite a while now, so it's not much of a big deal for me to fix a boat. It's what I do. I know what to look for in a project. It takes a few years and several good soakings before you'll acquire these skills, so working small, then moving up is the efficient course, unless you have more money to burn then you know what to do with.

Hello Par,


Thanks again for all the time spend giving me advice! Much appreciated!
Basically everyone on all forums who give serious advice, strongly recommend me to find an expert to check out the boat and so, that is what I did.

Pity you are on the other side of the planet, otherwise i could have asked you to come along! Sweden is for you not around the corner!

btw: what the owner is calling freeboards = the hull above the waterline. I can see the light from the outside in between the planks! But the owner also told me that when the boat gets wet with sailing, these gaps usually close.


I contacted this surveyor:
Auktoriserad Båtbesiktning | Kontakt

and he directed me to a wooden boat designer / builder / surveyor who just seems to live at 1 km distance from where the boat is being kept right now in Stockholm.

This man is in the field since the 1950's ! and he designed and build a boat similar to that himself. It seems I stumbled across the person with the most knowledge and expertise and experience in Sweden! (he is familiar with both old fashioned and modern technique's of maintenance)

So what we will do is a quick check first and when we think, the boat is worth while a good investigation, we decide to get it back on the land.

I was really lucky to find a top expert so close living to the boat!
If the forum members would not have pushed me (including you) , I might not have done it!


I do understand that a boat is different than wood in a house. of course, but that is part of the fun!
What matters for me is getting the right information. Got the time to do it, than why not, but of course the hull needs to be OK.


Best regards,

Udo

I did find out from the owner what the outside coating is all about:
a hard shell fibre glass epoxy coating. Curious what the surveyor (and designer) of the boat is going to say tomorrow morning.

Message to PAR:

Hello PAR, I guess you could not agree even more on this commend from another forum:

btw: The hull coating is glass-fibre epoxy on solid mahogany carvel build, so indeed it starts to worry me more and more, in spite of the fact that I love the boat.

Here is the commend from another forum user on a different forum:

OK - glass/epoxy sheathed. I was going to doubt GluvIt, which I use a lot and have written of here, by itself but if it's available outside the US, it would be hard to beat as a resin with glass.

Glass sheathing has a bad rep due to early attempts with polyester resins rather than epoxy. Done right on all sound wood, it can be terrific. Done wrong especially over a planking schedule not suitable for the rigidity of glass, it develops shere voids that sooner or later will be great spots for rot. Having to fill in the upper edge with epoxy is a worry sign.

The last boat I dealt with that had this treatment was well served when we just stripped all the glass off and lived with a certain amount of leakage and a distinctly leisurly approach to going after bad frames.

It'll be interesting what the surveyor finds. Just remember, she's a wee boat and even if there are deep problems, some frame-end sistering and a couple new planks is something you can do in a winter, so if the price is right . . .

I'm active on most forums and know most of the professionals that contribute.

The statements made here are generic, but accurate. Sheathing can be done and it can work, but it's rare to see it done properly. Knowing what I do about your boat, it's not done properly.

Gluvit is a useless product. It's a thinned epoxy, which dramatically weakens the end result. Gluvit is a marketing tool, used by the same type of companies that sell cup holders for use in the head. Gluvit is what a novice uses, when he wants to make more work for the person, that has to redo the same repair a few years later. Professionals do not use this product. I would not expect the advise of those that do use this stuff, to be particularly helpful or accurate.

Again, as a general rule carvel hulls do not tolerate 'glass sheathings very well. There's just too much movement in the planks to expect the sheathing to remain in contact with the wood. A heavy sheathing can solve this, but I gather it's not a heavy sheath, but a light one, which is typical. Also having an exposed seam at the LWL is a real amateur way of doing things and sure to cause issues. The fact that you have to address this seam is a sure indication of moisture getting behind the sheathing, which WILL lead to not good things. In other words, the owner is telling you the sheathing has issues.

PAR: without these forums and your advice, I might have made the wrong decision.

I am still going tomorrow morning, and see what the surveyor is telling me, but indeed, the fact that we can not see what's underneath the plastic scares the hell out of me.

Woods moves and plastic NOT, that's very clear to me as well.
That is can be done properly surprises me actually!

If I walk away, I might consider another one:

Have you heard of Skaw 26? Skaw 26 is a known serial 60s CARVEL-BUILT Honduras mahogany . The present owner bought it only a year ago, to restore and resell, Can still contact the previous owner who had it for years. The present owner scraped off the hull under the waterline and actually intended... what? To sheet it with plastic as well! Guess what? He decided not to do it, because the woodwork was so clean and good. So no plastic on it at all. There was damage to the mahogany plywood deck, he told me he scraped off the bad wood and covered it all with fibre glass. / epoxy.

That was basically all.

Saver bet?

Here are some images: (images 9+10 are from a different skaw - the last 2)

http://dev.colourcertainty.co.uk/01I...s/2010/Skaw26/


Udo

In the time this boat was designed, there were thousands of designs of this general configuration, many lost to time and indifference. She looks to be a classic CCA era yacht, wholesome, but "tight" by modern standards. Likely a comfortable and balanced sailor.